How would dempsey do against todays Heavyweights?

[travestyny]

Wrote it to say that regardless of a reporter making a statement as to "why" a wrap of one sort, or another was done, the real concern for fighters was not to harden the hands but to protect the hands from breaking. At this time in history a fighters methods were not as regulated and many fighters used different types of substances to wrap the hands and to harden the hands.

It is easy to turn around and then claim that these methods were cheating, a way for a fighter to harm others, etc. The truth is that fighters of that time engaged in wrappings of different times, to stabilize the hands.

You have a real hard on for dempsey but most fighters of this time had corners that jealously guarded different wraps, that were used for the fighter, as for example, Kid Mccoy. The great John Sullivan allegedlly used among other things: Oil skin, pickle juice, Shellack, and other such things on his hands. It was just common practice

Knowing this, I don't automatically assume there were not other motivations, and other information involved. I don't buy it lock stock and barrel any more than I would buy the testimony of Jack London, a well educated writer, a boxing reporter and a person who was motivated to claim that Black fighters were inferior....All these journalists had axes to grind, so I look at them suspiciosly. to say the least.

Certainly its possible Dempsey was a cheat and a lowlife, but if you want consideration for that idea, correlate the type of testimony to other more reliable data source material..Hence my admonition that there is evidence historically, and through the gyms, through other fighters like Tunney, etc that Dempsey was a straight shooter, you get what I was trying to say now? lol. So in fact the testimony of a journalist, when journalists could be non reliable, something it would be nice to hear you just aknowledge frankly... does not seem to jibe with the testimony of many others who knew Jack.

Dude, you're typing a whole lot when the simple quotation explains that the wraps cause "unusual damage" and were the reason that Williards face was ripped to shreds.

This by the man who wrapped his hands. And no, it wasn't a jilted ex employee because he was still working with him. You're giving a whole lot of explanation to something that is very simple.

It wasn't the testimony of a journalist....IT WAS THE TESTIMONY OF THE MAN WHO WRAPPED HIS HANDS.

I dont' see what is so difficult to get here. I'm hearing every excuse being given when the guy straight up admits what he did. Do you understand that?

“When I handled Kid McCoy I used to bandage his hands with a certain kind of adhesive tape. As soon as McCoy drew on the gloves, the tape hardened and, as a result, he was able to inflict unusual punishment. I wound Dempsey's hands with the same kind of bandages, which Willard inspected. The story that Dempsey wore aluminum pads over his knuckles is a lie. His bandages became hardened, no doubt, and that was why he cut Willard's face to ribbons.”

Mind you, another poster already shared a story of how McCoy would pretend he didn't want that particular tape on and rip it off, leaving strips across his knuckles. Do you really think they were ignorant to the damage that it would do? Give me a break.

I mention the journalists credentials only to prove they didn't pull this out of their asses. What is so hard to get here? Why do you think he was defending him from accusations of using aluminum pads??

[billeau2]

Dude, you're typing a whole lot when the simple quotation explains that the wraps cause "unusual damage" and were the reason that Williards face was ripped to shreds.

This by the man who wrapped his hands. And no, it wasn't a jilted ex employee because he was still working with him. You're giving a whole lot of explanation to something that is very simple.

It wasn't the testimony of a journalist....IT WAS THE TESTIMONY OF THE MAN WHO WRAPPED HIS HANDS.

I dont' see what is so difficult to get here. I'm hearing every excuse being given when the guy straight up admits what he did. Do you understand that?




Mind you, another poster already shared a story of how McCoy would pretend he didn't want that particular tape on and rip it off, leaving strips across his knuckles. Do you really think they were ignorant to the damage that it would do? Give me a break.

I mention the journalists credentials only to prove they didn't pull this out of their asses. What is so hard to get here? Why do you think he was defending him from accusations of using aluminum pads??

I never said he was a jilted employee, I said that the practice was regular, used by fighters on a routine basis. The hand wrapper was using a lie of omission, perhaps not intentionally. The wraps could not account for the beating in and of itself, if you look at the actual event Dempsey could have been practically hitting with pillows.

Journalists, managers, hand wrappers, and all others, it does not matter in this case because looking at the event it is obvious that there was a lot more to why the beating was so, than the hand wraps.

The hand wrapper is not credible in this case in making the case that Dempsey did something atypical, causative to such an extent...the kid McCoy quote reinforces this fact, and there are other quotes as well that reinforce what fighters did with their hands back then. Something you think of as making this accusation more complex...well context will do that sometimes!

You want to take this quote as a credible example of a situation that shows a variation from common practice...what the wrap man does not say here is equally important though... Kid MCcoy says it though, and other fighters have parlayed it as well...It was a common thing for fighters to wrap their hands with materials and use linaments. Not including this and making exxagerating the damage becomes a lie of omission.

Finally there are other accounts of what happened by other witnesses. Your right it is a simple case but it is one where a defense might be necessary. Without considering the context, the event as it unfolded...I guarantee if I let you tee off on me for a solid few minutes at least, I would be cut, wraps, or no wraps... Considering what fighters did back then... Let me guess only Kid McCoy and Dempsey used wraps that were abrasive? that included rubbers, expoxies, etc? NO!! thats just a fact, I even gave you the example of Sullivan.

Think it through, there is a context to the event that figures in as much as the wrap man's account.

[travestyny]

I never said he was a jilted employee, I said that the practice was regular, used by fighters on a routine basis. The hand wrapper was using a lie of omission, perhaps not intentionally. The wraps could not account for the beating in and of itself, if you look at the actual event Dempsey could have been practically hitting with pillows.

Journalists, managers, hand wrappers, and all others, it does not matter in this case because looking at the event it is obvious that there was a lot more to why the beating was so, than the hand wraps.

The hand wrapper is not credible in this case in making the case that Dempsey did something atypical, causative to such an extent...the kid McCoy quote reinforces this fact, and there are other quotes as well that reinforce what fighters did with their hands back then. Something you think of as making this accusation more complex...well context will do that sometimes!

You want to take this quote as a credible example of a situation that shows a variation from common practice...what the wrap man does not say here is equally important though... Kid MCcoy says it though, and other fighters have parlayed it as well...It was a common thing for fighters to wrap their hands with materials and use linaments. Not including this and making exxagerating the damage becomes a lie of omission.

Finally there are other accounts of what happened by other witnesses. Your right it is a simple case but it is one where a defense might be necessary. Without considering the context, the event as it unfolded...I guarantee if I let you tee off on me for a solid few minutes at least, I would be cut, wraps, or no wraps... Considering what fighters did back then... Let me guess only Kid McCoy and Dempsey used wraps that were abrasive? that included rubbers, expoxies, etc? NO!! thats just a fact, I even gave you the example of Sullivan.

Think it through, there is a context to the event that figures in as much as the wrap man's account.

No no, I think you're not understanding this properly.

To some degree you are right, which I've stated before. The regulations were lax back then and some indeed did use this practice, but that's not the point. Loaded gloves are loaded gloves. Willard had complained previously about going up against guys that had loaded gloves, which is why he peered over to look at Dempsey's wraps before the fight. Also, in Dempsey's fight after this, Carpentier actually asked Dempsey to remove the tape and go with only the gauze that was mandated by the NJ commission.

That the practice was allowed due to lax regulations doesn't mean there was no ill intent or that it was expected. It indeed was sneaky and done to get an advantage. This was clear. Kid McCoy used the same method and it was clearly a sneaky tactic to gain an advantage.

You said above that there was a lot more to do with why the beating was so....how can you draw that opinion. We don't know how Willard would have been affected had it not been for these wraps that caused "unusual damage." The trainer says that clearly. He said it allowed for him to rip Williard's face up. Actually, it was reported that it did more than that.

There is a reason that after the fight, Dempsey was accused of using aluminum pads. That should make it clear that there was believed to be something off about the damage done with the punches. Look at this:

The mention of “aluminum pads” would seem to indicate that there must have been some suspicion even then of destructive foreign substances inside Dempsey's gloves. The discredited Kearns tells a discredited story with his plaster of paris. But the DeForest tale of “a certain kind of adhesive tape” sounds both plausible and logical. How else could a single punch splinter a cheek*bone into 13 pieces?

Splintered a cheekbone into 13 pieces????

No one is arguing that it was illegal and not used. The hand wrapper never claimed Dempsey did something "atypical." To the contrary, he is explaining why Dempsey was able to do so much damage. However, it is clear to see that it was sneaky, used to get an advantage, and indeed loaded wraps! There was a clear advantage!!! How is the Kid McCoy quotation reinforcing your side of this when he was very sneaky in removing the tape of his own will, only to leave strips of it over his knuckles??? And this was the same trainer that Dempsey used. If anything, this discredits your belief that it may have been only to stabilize their hands, and supports me that it was clearly done to gain a sneaky advantage.

So saying he could have been hitting with pillows is outrageous when the guy who wrapped his hand said specifically: unusual damage was caused by these wraps.

[billeau2]

No no, I think you're not understanding this properly.

To some degree you are right, which I've stated before. The regulations were lax back then and some indeed did use this practice, but that's not the point. Loaded gloves are loaded gloves. Willard had complained previously about going up against guys that had loaded gloves, which is why he peered over to look at Dempsey's wraps before the fight. Also, in Dempsey's fight after this, Carpentier actually asked Dempsey to remove the tape and go with only the gauze that was mandated by the NJ commission.

That the practice was allowed due to lax regulations doesn't mean there was no ill intent or that it was expected. It indeed was sneaky and done to get an advantage. This was clear. Kid McCoy used the same method and it was clearly a sneaky tactic to gain an advantage.

You said above that there was a lot more to do with why the beating was so....how can you draw that opinion. We don't know how Willard would have been affected had it not been for these wraps that caused "unusual damage." The trainer says that clearly. He said it allowed for him to rip Williard's face up. Actually, it was reported that it did more than that.

There is a reason that after the fight, Dempsey was accused of using aluminum pads. That should make it clear that there was believed to be something off about the damage done with the punches. Look at this:



Splintered a cheekbone into 13 pieces????

No one is arguing that it was illegal and not used. The hand wrapper never claimed Dempsey did something "atypical." To the contrary, he is explaining why Dempsey was able to do so much damage. However, it is clear to see that it was sneaky, used to get an advantage, and indeed loaded wraps! There was a clear advantage!!! How is the Kid McCoy quotation reinforcing your side of this when he was very sneaky in removing the tape of his own will, only to leave strips of it over his knuckles??? And this was the same trainer that Dempsey used. If anything, this discredits your belief that it may have been only to stabilize their hands, and supports me that it was clearly done to gain a sneaky advantage.

So saying he could have been hitting with pillows is outrageous when the guy who wrapped his hand said specifically: unusual damage was caused by these wraps.

A cheekbone does not splinter into 13 pieces lol. That should clue you in to hyperbole that and the fact that willard kept fighting. i didn't say stabilize the hands, I said harden the hands and keep them from breaking. Yes it was sneaky...everything was sneaky back then lol, it was a martial art, and you got ahead by using superior tactics.

Wraps were a part of the situation and there are numerous witnesses to this situation and the two things all accounts have in common are: the hyperbole and the rogues list of "witnesses."

If Willard had been shattered in 13 pieces, he would not have been able to keep fighting. Thats common sense not a matter of comparing two beat up willards! Your thnking the wrap man was more credible than the rest and a lot of people didn't buy that...

Kid McCoy doing the same and trying to get over on a hardened material on the wraps shows that a fighter, known to hit very hard by sparring partners (there are eyewitness accounts) shows that fighters did this. Again it was part of the fighters bag of tricks.

I never said wrapping materials was not done for an advantage. I said that at that time part of a fighters arsenal included alchemy involving the wraps, linaments, etc. I also said that alot of these potations were used to ensure that the hands did not break.

YOu have to use common sense. If Dempsey had hit Willard with bricks in his gloves, shattered his cheekbone in 13 pieces, knocked his eyes out, broke all his teeth, crushed in his windpipe, caved his skull in....how did Willard manage to go on? Obviously if Dempsey had a hard material in his gloves, which is debated, (as said), it was not something that was homicidal.

My point is that when we take a totality of evidence, including all the eyewitness accounts, including, the context of what generally occured, Dempsey was not doing something that was atypical for the time...do you know what Willard had on his hands that fight? Do you know what fighters were using to prepare their hands? Is it worse to put a hardening agent on a guaze surface than to affix the hands with turpentine? Something fighters often did, along with linseed oil and other hardening agents.

Look Travesty:

I am not a moral relativist but I do consider the state of the individual and the time. For example, its easy for men of science to say that Galileo was ahead of his time and predicted the force of gravity...but if we were alive at the time, Galileo would have appeared as a raving lunatic!

Dempsey grew up in a very ignorant way, and consequently was not, at the time of his career, ready to give blacks the opportunity we can see now, that was deserved, but that does not mean Harry Wills was a great fighter. And Branch Rickey, the man who gave Jackie Robinson the chance to play in the majors, was by all accounts an eccentric. I am glad he lived, and gave Robinson that chance, but Dempsey later on in life was not a rascist, and he probably did not know better coming up nobody was there to teach him so to speak.

As far as the history of the time boxing was a sport where every man was responsible for himself, and if tactics dictated this meant putting a horseshoe in the glove...there were guys who would do it!! Musashi is sometimes called the greatest swordsman ever in Japan...those of us who study the sword laugh at this, he was not even one of the best... He was fighting prince Koto, who was in fact a great swordsman and Musashi knew this... So Musashi was in a boat and set to meet the prince in a duel...he kept goading the prince to come out into the shore line and finally the prince had enough and rushed out...instantly losing all his mobility and footwork...whereupon Musashi put down his sword and picked up his 8 foot long boat oar, now giving him reach and equal footing, instantly taking all prince Koto's advantages away... whereupon Musashi beat the princes skull in winning the duel.

I think in Dempsey's time? boxing was more like that battle, than a dignified contest where both men were checked in my the commission, etc. Dempsey knew how to communicate on that level, so did Willard! so did any fighter at that time if they intended to make it. Can yu dig what I am saying? Its not that I think you are wrong, its just that to my way of thinking there was nothing exceptional and no real good testimony showing that Dempsey was transgressing a line a part of the sport at that time.

[travestyny]

First of all, great conversation and I appreciate it. Just want to ensure that there is no tension here..but I don't intend to let you off the hook. lol

A cheekbone does not splinter into 13 pieces lol. That should clue you in to hyperbole that and the fact that willard kept fighting. i didn't say stabilize the hands, I said harden the hands and keep them from breaking. Yes it was sneaky...everything was sneaky back then lol, it was a martial art, and you got ahead by using superior tactics.

Wraps were a part of the situation and there are numerous witnesses to this situation and the two things all accounts have in common are: the hyperbole and the rogues list of "witnesses."

If Willard had been shattered in 13 pieces, he would not have been able to keep fighting. Thats common sense not a matter of comparing two beat up willards! Your thnking the wrap man was more credible than the rest and a lot of people didn't buy that...

Who are the "lots of people" that didn't buy that. Plenty have already agreed that these were indeed loaded wraps. I posted this already

But besides that, what do you mean that Willard was able to keep fighting? He was knocked down 7 times and on the canvas in the neutral corner at the end of the first round!!!!

He stayed on his feet for the next two rounds but his corner called an end to it. He obviously wasn't going to make it...so I don't see how you can argue that he was able to keep fighting. There is a reason the towel was thrown!

Kid McCoy doing the same and trying to get over on a hardened material on the wraps shows that a fighter, known to hit very hard by sparring partners (there are eyewitness accounts) shows that fighters did this. Again it was part of the fighters bag of tricks.

Exactly! I think we agree. Particularly to this being a trick. I've never argued that fighters didn't do this. I've argued that they were loaded gloves, which they clearly were.

I never said wrapping materials was not done for an advantage. I said that at that time part of a fighters arsenal included alchemy involving the wraps, linaments, etc. I also said that alot of these potations were used to ensure that the hands did not break.

Exactly. The bolded part. That's what I'm saying, bro!

YOu have to use common sense. If Dempsey had hit Willard with bricks in his gloves, shattered his cheekbone in 13 pieces, knocked his eyes out, broke all his teeth, crushed in his windpipe, caved his skull in....how did Willard manage to go on? Obviously if Dempsey had a hard material in his gloves, which is debated, (as said), it was not something that was homicidal.

Dude. Are you serious? LMAO. The fight went 3 rounds. I don't get your argument here.

And how could he go on if there were bricks? We have an example of that. Billy Collins finished his 10 round fight with Luis Resto. That pretty much proves your point to be moot since we know Resto loaded his gloves. Let me remind you what he looked like at the finish line.



Willard made it to the 3rd round.

My point is that when we take a totality of evidence, including all the eyewitness accounts, including, the context of what generally occured, Dempsey was not doing something that was atypical for the time...do you know what Willard had on his hands that fight? Do you know what fighters were using to prepare their hands? Is it worse to put a hardening agent on a guaze surface than to affix the hands with turpentine? Something fighters often did, along with linseed oil and other hardening agents.

I don't know what Willard had on his hands, but I know that he complained about going up against guys that had hardened wraps. I've seen no evidence of Willard using loaded gloves, and even if I had, what's the point that you are trying to make. Then simply put, they both used loaded gloves. I think you're assuming that I'm trying to say Dempsey did something illegal. I'm not. I'm saying the same thing you are saying. Rules were lax and he took advantage of that by using loaded gloves.

[Zaroku]

First of all, great conversation and I appreciate it. Just want to ensure that there is no tension here..but I don't intend to let you off the hook. lol




Who are the "lots of people" that didn't buy that. Plenty have already agreed that these were indeed loaded wraps. I posted this already

But besides that, what do you mean that Willard was able to keep fighting? He was knocked down 7 times and on the canvas in the neutral corner at the end of the first round!!!!

He stayed on his feet for the next two rounds but his corner called an end to it. He obviously wasn't going to make it...so I don't see how you can argue that he was able to keep fighting. There is a reason the towel was thrown!




Exactly! I think we agree. Particularly to this being a trick. I've never argued that fighters didn't do this. I've argued that they were loaded gloves, which they clearly were.



Exactly. The bolded part. That's what I'm saying, bro!





Dude. Are you serious? LMAO. The fight went 3 rounds. I don't get your argument here.

And how could he go on if there were bricks. We have an example of that. Billy Collins finished his 10 round fight with Luis Resto. That pretty much proves your point to be moot since we know Resto loaded his gloves. Let me remind you what he looked like at the finish line.



Willard made it to the 3rd round.



I don't know what Willard had on his hands, but I know that he complained about going up against guys that had hardened wraps. I've seen no evidence of Willard using loaded gloves, and even if I had, what's the point that you are trying to make. Then simply put, they both used loaded gloves. I think you're assuming that I'm trying to say Dempsey did something illegal. I'm not. I'm saying the same thing you are saying. Rules were lax and he took advantage of that by using loaded gloves.

Datum, something most definitely was added to the tape or wraps, quick lime, concrete?

[travestyny]

Datum, something most definitely was added to the tape or wraps, quick lime, concrete?

Man, it was so sad what happened to Billy Collins. R.I.P.

[The Old LefHook]

Dempsey, though not fully exonerated, must then be released for lack of compelling evidence against him, the most damaging so-called evidence being that the Manassa Mauler did great damage to his opponents quickly in a business meant to, with a style meant to.

The circumstantial evidence, however, along with historical context, offers strong suggestion of skullduggery. The mere association of Kearns with any enterprise is enough to cast a pall of dread over it. This, coupled with Dempsey's already vast fighting experience in a more primitive and brutal format than in the ring under Marquis of Queensbury rules, was a fateful combination. Dempsey had already fought every kind of battle short of with knives and guns by the time he became a prizefighter. He had already seen it all, probably including someone being thrown a pair of brass knuckles in a hard scrap. Given his biography, it is reasonable to assume Dempsey had at one time or another been on either side of the equation. He may have already even come up against an opponent on the street who was thrown a pair of knuckles. If he himself had needed no such favors from a friend, there are other favors that can be granted without the fighter even knowing, other unsavory advantages to be gained. If he had a manager (Kearns) who fixed such things for him, then he had a good one, is how Dempsey would have seen it. The dirty world Dempsey had witnessed up close told him that everyone in the game was looking for such advantages. And I can just hear the preaching of Kearns to his young protege, assuring him that if he did not seek every advantage, dirty or clean, he was a fool, for surely every other manager was securing these advantages for their fighters. Kearns was extremely persuasive, and as deceitful as he had to be, anytime he needed something his way. But in the case of Jack Dempsey, he would have been preaching to the choir, since all Dempsey's rough experience before that had prepared him for a dirty game taking place in a dirty, deceitful world. This is one more reason Dempsey would have felt he had the best manager--because he had the most deceitful one. That is the manager you want representing you in a dirty world.

[travestyny]

Dempsey, though not fully exonerated, must then be released for lack of compelling evidence against him, the most damaging so-called evidence being that the Manassa Mauler did great damage to his opponents quickly in a business meant to, with a style meant to.

The circumstantial evidence, however, along with historical context, offers strong suggestion of skullduggery. The mere association of Kearns with any enterprise is enough to cast a pall of dread over it. This, coupled with Dempsey's already vast fighting experience in a more primitive and brutal format than in the ring under Marquis of Queensbury rules, was a fateful combination. Dempsey had already fought every kind of battle short of with knives and guns by the time he became a prizefighter. He had already seen it all, probably including someone being thrown a pair of brass knuckles in a hard scrap. Given his biography, it is reasonable to assume Dempsey had at one time or another been on either side of the equation. He may have already even come up against an opponent on the street who was thrown a pair of knuckles. If he himself had needed no such favors from a friend, there are other favors that can be granted without the fighter even knowing, other unsavory advantages to be gained. If he had a manager (Kearns) who fixed such things for him, then he had a good one, is how Dempsey would have seen it. The dirty world Dempsey had witnessed up close told him that everyone in the game was looking for such advantages. And I can just hear the preaching of Kearns to his young protege, assuring him that if he did not seek every advantage, dirty or clean, he was a fool, for surely every other manager was securing these advantages for their fighters. Kearns was extremely persuasive, and as deceitful as he had to be, anytime he needed something his way. But in the case of Jack Dempsey, he would have been preaching to the choir, since all Dempsey's rough experience before that had prepared him for a dirty game taking place in a dirty, deceitful world. This is one more reason Dempsey would have felt he had the best manager--because he had the most deceitful one. That is the manager you want representing you in a dirty world.

Great post. Agree with most of what you said except the first part.

The most damaging evidence was the admittance of his trainer while he was still working with him.

Otherwise, I can definitely agree with your post! Perhaps it was needed, though there were examples of others like Carpentier who also had a great manager that simply demanded that Demp remove the deceitful tape. But guys were up against it so I don't want my posts to be viewed as an attack on his character, at least not based on what's being mentioned here.

Respect, bro.

[GhostofDempsey]

Datum, something most definitely was added to the tape or wraps, quick lime, concrete?

Berto's eyes looked just as bad after his fight with Guerrero. Loaded wraps?

Vargas' left eye looked even worse from Mosley's right hands. Loaded wraps?

Liston put 39 stitches in Wepners face and broke his cheekbone, no loaded wraps.

The Dempsey loaded/taped wraps myth was debunked. His manager who he fired later came out with that story. Several of his former opponents spoke out in his favor. As did many journalists who helped to debunk those cheating allegations.