Anderson Silva vs Roy Jones

[QueensburyRules]

you're right about GSP, though. Absolute legend. He's the benchmark for any athlete.

- -And he spent a training camp amount of time in his prime training with Manny and Roach to earn those boxing chops.

And Early doors boxing Manny also did Muy Thai. Praise The Lord that boxing won out or we woulda missed out on his Thurman gem.

Guy is major league, PhD serious about. Pro fighting.

[billeau2]

- -Mma thugs used to pollute our boxing boards with how their punks could take boxing punks in a street fight not knowing the infinite situations arising in a street fight.

Pretty low brow stuff, so I watched a few mma bouts for understanding and not impressed with all the rolling around that had bob arum and others using infamous descriptors.

I told em how easy it would be for a boxer with good feet to just jab and move and that was going to be the evolution mma was going to be moving to and I was right.

Gsp has won fights with mostly jabs to stay off the ground. Silva a league below gsp but still one of the better strikers who are a dime a dozen these days.

And the crowd evolved from booing standup and cheering the the unseemly suggestive rolling around to be cheer stand up and boo when the rolling becomes excessive and obviously useless. A good ko is the most dramatic action that can take place.

Gsp is p4p collectively a top 5 fighter of unarmed combat sports and #1 for me, but he's old now and should retire as he's been near retired for some time now. He still got a mind for chess, but too many creaks in that old body.

The problem with MMA imo is it started on amateur ground. The Gracies and the grappling traditions developed first and became a class above the rest of the technical skills involved.

Then certain principles developed for striking and they were accepted fairly easily. For example, we were told that a jab would put a man in trouble because of the take down applications. But how much was this information tested?

here is the kicker (pardon the pun): As a martial arts teacher I happened to have great legs. I knew after about ten years of study that fast feet could be devistating. So much so, that Bill Wallace was never beat because no one could get past his round kick. I used those same kicks and was very successful. I never considered myself a fighter but beat many who would come for our open sparring with just my legs. My point is that NOW we are seeing kicking come into the Octogon. These kicks, much like proper grappling are so effective, WHEN DONE PROPERLY, they can instantly take care of business.

As far as the rolling around, one has to know what to look for...Although having watched some of the Gracie guys as a guest at the first professionally sanctioned MMA bout in San Francisco...a lot of them just grab and don't let go lol. But there are grapplers with incredible technical ability that would be a handful for any other fighter.

MMA just has to absorb things properly. Hint: Thai Kicks are great...but very different in technical quality than kicks done to the head. Thai Kicks are an axe...High kicks have a whipping movement that makes them deadly...different feel entirely.

Sorry a bit of a digression here lol.

[billeau2]

Conor gets inside peoples' heads. It's all rumor-mill, but Floyd had made derogatory comments about MMA fighters previously, but then feared ever getting into MMA (rember his WWF crossover?). And even leading into the fiht w/ Conor was having second thoughts - but meeting Conor was better than facing down the IRS, or losing his "0" to a Boxer inferior to himself.
Conor fought smart. But his gameplan was built on making Floyd "fight like a Mexican" from the start. Floyd's offensive skills had clearly atrophied because even when Conor was prone, Floyd kinda stumbled through the offense.

Floyd's a minimalist and risk adverese, so he wasn't going to make any attempt to get Conor out of there early. He really seemed uncomfortable with Conor's size and composure. Remember, he refused to even meet little Nasukawa in anything other than a Boxing match.

Conor's hubris definitely got the better of him. But the payoff was totally worth it. Even if he had waited out a few more years, properly preparing with a real Boxing coach, and demanded Mayweather meet him at a more suitable weight, the hope of winning, while much greater, wouldn't necessarily carry the value fighting Mayweather in 2017 had.

From what you are saying floyd would never have agreed to meet Conor under those conditions anyway (the bolded). Yes this makes a lot of sense, Floyd is extremely risk adverse... I did not see this fight but caught highlights of Nasukawa and you could tell Floyd lost a step. Its sad because Floyd pisses on his legacy more than anyone else could or so it seems.

[QueensburyRules]

- -As to Bigfoot Wallace, what little I've seen, he is a true wonder.

As far as never being beat, he and Joe Lewis did an exhibition. After embarrassingly being slapped silly while using traditional boxing, Joe snatched his foot and drove him one footed into the ropes and mullered him softly. They reset and Joe repeated and a few x more. Had that been a legit match, the smaller Bigfoot would've been toast.

[billeau2]

- -As to Bigfoot Wallace, what little I've seen, he is a true wonder.

As far as never being beat, he and Joe Lewis did an exhibition. After embarrassingly being slapped silly while using traditional boxing, Joe snatched his foot and drove him one footed into the ropes and mullered him softly. They reset and Joe repeated and a few x more. Had that been a legit match, the smaller Bigfoot would've been toast.

They fought many times professionally against each other and Wallace always won. Exhibition wise, they are dear friends, though I think joe might have passed? I hope not dont want to look it up now.

Great fighters but they destroyed karate by turning it into kick boxing. Not their fault they wanted a way to do what boxers do. the original karate was very different and people broke a lot of things. The Japanese full contact Kukishin, is more in the spirit than kick boxing but still not quite the same. We used to fight in those events and they would inevitably end in a big free for all and the MC firing a gun while muttering blood oaths to those who started the fracas! Ah the good old days! lol. Where the one rule was: "BOYS!? make sure you leave heeer with the same IQ you came in width!!!"

[QueensburyRules]

They fought many times professionally against each other and Wallace always won. Exhibition wise, they are dear friends, though I think joe might have passed? I hope not dont want to look it up now.

Great fighters but they destroyed karate by turning it into kick boxing. Not their fault they wanted a way to do what boxers do. the original karate was very different and people broke a lot of things. The Japanese full contact Kukishin, is more in the spirit than kick boxing but still not quite the same. We used to fight in those events and they would inevitably end in a big free for all and the MC firing a gun while muttering blood oaths to those who started the fracas! Ah the good old days! lol. Where the one rule was: "BOYS!? make sure you leave heeer with the same IQ you came in width!!!"

- -At one time there was some talk of matching Lewis with Ali in a boxing defense of his title, but Lewis an unknown with the boxing fans, so it never took off.

As to BF and Joe fighting, not in his kick boxing record, and their exhibition touted in "What if" terms, and they never close in wt class.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_...martial_artist)

As to Rusty assertion that mma started on the ground with Gracie, well Gracie was unknown as part of the greatest mixed cast of martial artists ever assembled for a mixed rules fight format. This was open class, no wt div, and that included a Texas boy from San Antone who had been a HS football lineman with a growing rep as a back of a Nuevo Laredo bar bareknuckler.

He made it to the quarters and scheduled to fight Royce but sustained an injury in his last win, prob a broken hand. Net result is Royce got a much needed pass and ended up. Winning the tourney.

Had our Texas boy been healthy, pretty sure he coulda KOed Gracie then and maybe won the tourney, but all credit to Royce who became a legend.

[Rusty Tromboni]

- -At one time there was some talk of matching Lewis with Ali in a boxing defense of his title, but Lewis an unknown with the boxing fans, so it never took off.

As to BF and Joe fighting, not in his kick boxing record, and their exhibition touted in "What if" terms, and they never close in wt class.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_...martial_artist)

As to Rusty assertion that mma started on the ground with Gracie, well Gracie was unknown as part of the greatest mixed cast of martial artists ever assembled for a mixed rules fight format. This was open class, no wt div, and that included a Texas boy from San Antone who had been a HS football lineman with a growing rep as a back of a Nuevo Laredo bar bareknuckler.

He made it to the quarters and scheduled to fight Royce but sustained an injury in his last win, prob a broken hand. Net result is Royce got a much needed pass and ended up. Winning the tourney.

Had our Texas boy been healthy, pretty sure he coulda KOed Gracie then and maybe won the tourney, but all credit to Royce who became a legend.

I dunno, I feel like the luta Livre guys down in Brazil gave the Gracies every test they needed to be prepared for the UFC. They were regularly beating guys in their gym in California... better fighters than the ones they were finally able to sign to fight on camera in the UFC.

Lots of guys come into MMA gyms thinking they can fight because of their previous experiences: mostly it's Boxers, but sometimes it's still guys with some traditional martials arts training. It always ends the same. Well, not really, now they just get toyed with: law suits and what not. But it used to be really bad. If you don't know what your doing and your opponent doesn't care about you, you WILL get hurt.

With theses great Kickboxers, though, I have to wonder what happened: apparently Lewis and Wallace both had a Wrestling foundation. Lewis, Wallace and (maybe Benny Urquedez might have been to the 70's what Conor McGregor has been in this decade. But there was no venue like UFC/PRIDE FC to host them. And clearly they were too old when the Gracies put together the UFC. Talk about bad timing.

These guys didn't have any students to put forward in the 90's? Were their (potential) students too interested in switching over to Muay Thai? I always thought it was funny that the K1 talent pool mostly came NOT from America.

Or maybe it was a pride thing? I remember always reading that Muay Thai fighters always obliterated Western Kickboxers: Then I actually saw Urqudez vs. a Thai Boxers. Benny ****'d him up! It was finally decided by Judo throws, but the referee had to save the Thai fighter. Benny said no more thai fighters came looking for him after that. Their pride had been broken, clearly. And maybe that's why top American Kickboxers avoided early MMA?

[OctoberRed]

From what you are saying floyd would never have agreed to meet Conor under those conditions anyway (the bolded). Yes this makes a lot of sense, Floyd is extremely risk adverse... I did not see this fight but caught highlights of Nasukawa and you could tell Floyd lost a step. Its sad because Floyd pisses on his legacy more than anyone else could or so it seems.

$$$$$$$$$$$$

[VegasMichael]

- -As to Bigfoot Wallace, what little I've seen, he is a true wonder.

As far as never being beat, he and Joe Lewis did an exhibition. After embarrassingly being slapped silly while using traditional boxing, Joe snatched his foot and drove him one footed into the ropes and mullered him softly. They reset and Joe repeated and a few x more. Had that been a legit match, the smaller Bigfoot would've been toast.

I followed both their careers closely. Wallace had a great left leg kick and a good left hook. Lewis was a beast in his day and had an unstoppable side kick. They were both up there in age(for fighters) when they fought and not even close in weight like you mentioned. Lewis was a heavyweight and Wallace a middleweight. The Evil C got Lewis in the end, sadly.

[billeau2]

- -At one time there was some talk of matching Lewis with Ali in a boxing defense of his title, but Lewis an unknown with the boxing fans, so it never took off.

As to BF and Joe fighting, not in his kick boxing record, and their exhibition touted in "What if" terms, and they never close in wt class.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_...martial_artist)

As to Rusty assertion that mma started on the ground with Gracie, well Gracie was unknown as part of the greatest mixed cast of martial artists ever assembled for a mixed rules fight format. This was open class, no wt div, and that included a Texas boy from San Antone who had been a HS football lineman with a growing rep as a back of a Nuevo Laredo bar bareknuckler.

He made it to the quarters and scheduled to fight Royce but sustained an injury in his last win, prob a broken hand. Net result is Royce got a much needed pass and ended up. Winning the tourney.

Had our Texas boy been healthy, pretty sure he coulda KOed Gracie then and maybe won the tourney, but all credit to Royce who became a legend.

They fought an exhibition fight kickboxing, but their competition goes back before kickboxing to when tournaments were sponsered. Full contact sparring. The group of guys famous were during the golden age...skipper mullens, tom lapuppet, chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, Bill Wallace, Riley Hawkins and some others. Its just a known fact that nobody ever beat Wallace...these were the real battle royales.

Lewis was bigger than most but in those days when the dust cleared the winners for each division were given the option to fight each other... So the middle weight could fight the heavy weight champ for the big money and trophey.

wallace versus lewis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAEKbKHmo_Q

Gracies lost like everyone else in Brazil. Catch Can wrestlers, Lute Libre guys often defeated them. Brazil was a combat paradise... All kinds of folk wrestling, Japanese martial arts galore, from the Portugese expansion into Japan and predictable exchange, also Judo never suffered the consternation and censorship that it did in its homeland (Japan) in brazil during the second world war, so it evolved to such a degree that while the Kodokan, the spiritual home of Judo, was post-war, basically a dance hall where one would pick a partner and throw each other around all night with little technical assistance, or insight, the Brazilian Jiu Jutsu men such as Miata where developing the art. this included the ground game of course.

To this day there is debate as to whether Brazilian Jitsu is in fact anythng more than Judo.