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Old 05-21-2019, 10:24 PM #11
Chollo Vista Chollo Vista is offline
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Originally Posted by Tony Trick-Pony View Post
Gotta disagree with you on the hate group aspect. I mean, just look at some of these quotes. These are clearly there to rouse people and they state no actual facts. The rhetoric is definitely geared toward getting others to hate. I mean, that's very clear, man. Whether you agree or not, the language is there to get an emotional response without actually spreading knowledge. If they have clear evidence, they should go with that instead of saying things like this.

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As far as the conspiracy theory portion, you can leave that. That's all a matter of opinion.

Yeah, they have every right to ask for a donation and that's all well and good. I'm not against that at all. I'm not in favor of well, bullying a contribution, though. Haha. Now, if they weren't then fine. However, when you say they have to eat, I assumed this wasn't their full time careers and just something they were looking to do as far as cleaning up their community. Public service often doesn't pay. Politicians used to work for very little which is a better policy. If you really care, it shouldn't be about money. When it is, you're probably not going to put as much effort in. It's all about getting a check at that point. I don't believe the minute men in the early days of this country were paid for their service. However, I will look that up, though.

Good discussion, though!
There are many things Farakhan says that I agree with and some things he says that I don't agree with, I just think his approach in relaying his message could be different at times.... Why? Because it frightens white people. This is really what it comes down too.

Not so much the accuracy of his message, but that bit frightens white people and makes them think blacks will raise up and rebel against the white man
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Personally, I don't have any issues with Jews. Never have, but for the sake of improving the black community, I can overlook these small differences With the minister in hopes of having a better community.

Let's be honest and candid. That's what this is really about.

The NOI has been around since the 30's. Of all the negative publicity and hate they get, what hate crimes have they actually ccommitted against whites??

If you want to talk about facts, I challenge anyone of you to come forward with evidence of them actually killing whites? You won't find anything.

Almost 56 years ago, they killed Malcolm X who was one of their own. I will always hold resentment for that, but again he was one of their own. What did they do to white people? Nothing.

The only thing they're guilty of is trying to educate their own people, instill a sense of pride a d value in black men, clean up the gun violence in their own communities and increase education. That's it. That's what they're guilty of factually.

Thier values actually align with the talking points of Republicans which is why it's fascinating to watch Republicans attack them. They and the democrats attack them because they don't control them

The dems and republicans only want black leadership that they can control. Anyone that they don't control, they are immediately threatened by them and cast them as a criminal/criminal organization.

We will not make any real progress in this country until America can come to terms with they can't covertly control everything and still expect to have success. Blacks need a different type of doctrine, one that doesn't meet traditional standards because we face and have faced challenges internally and externally (400 years worth) that are unique to that of any other ethnic group.

Last edited by Chollo Vista; 05-21-2019 at 10:31 PM.
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:29 PM #12
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Originally Posted by Tony Trick-Pony View Post
Gotta disagree with you on the hate group aspect. I mean, just look at some of these quotes. These are clearly there to rouse people and they state no actual facts. The rhetoric is definitely geared toward getting others to hate. I mean, that's very clear, man.
Get ready for him to put you back on Ignore.
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:44 PM #13
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Originally Posted by Chollo Vista View Post
There are many things Farakhan says that I agree with and some things he says that I don't agree with, I just think his approach in relaying his message could be different at times.... Why? Because it frightens white people. This is really what it comes down too.

Not so much the accuracy of his message, but that bit frightens white people and makes them think blacks will raise up and rebel against the white man
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Personally, I don't have any issues with Jews. Never have, but for the sake of improving the black community, I can overlook these small differences With the minister in hopes of having a better community.

Let's be honest and candid. That's what this is really about.

The NOI has been around since the 30's. Of all the negative publicity and hate they get, what hate crimes have they actually ccommitted against whites??

If you want to talk about facts, I challenge anyone of you to come forward with evidence of them actually killing whites? You won't find anything.

Almost 56 years ago, they killed Malcolm X who was one of their own. I will always hold resentment for that, but again he was one of their own. What did they do to white people? Nothing.

The only thing they're guilty of is trying to educate their own people, instill a sense of pride a d value in black men, clean up the gun violence in their own communities and increase education. That's it. That's what they're guilty of factually.

Thier values actually align with the talking points of Republicans which is why it's fascinating to watch Republicans attack them. They and the democrats attack them because they don't control them

The dems and republicans only want black leadership that they can control. Anyone that they don't control, they are immediately threatened by them and cast them as a criminal/criminal organization.

We will not make any real progress in this country until America can come to terms with they can't covertly control everything and still expect to have success. Blacks need a different type of doctrine, one that doesn't meet traditional standards because we face and have faced challenges internally and externally (400 years worth) that are unique to that of any other ethnic group.
"White people are potential humans- they haven't evolved yet."

Louis Farrakhan.

[Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]

So yes, I consider him and the NOI a hate group.

As far as crimes against whites, I'm not saying they have but I will be researching it now and see.

One point I need to bring up though, is the murder of Malcolm X. Malcolm X was an inspiration to millions and this group murdered him when he wanted to prove that Elijah Muhammad was sleeping with those young girls. Am I right? I mean, they murdered him over that. Great leader and inspiration for their cause was that expendable over that one thing? Just murder him? It doesn't say much for their cause.

And I'm not saying they haven't or can't do some good things. Vigilantism is often a good thing imo. And if they helped clean up the area, I praise them for that. Crime is tough to fight and having brave men step up and fight it is always inspiring.

I just don't want to wear rose-colored glasses either way. Like any group, they have their faults. This shows that they did some good work though and I praise this, although I don't think they'll take me seriously since I am only a potential human.
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:50 PM #14
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I was not aware that Cassius Clay actually dodged the draft because of fear of Elija Muhammad. Wow.

Under Elijah Muhammad’s leadership, the NOI grew to be an influential, controlling, and intimidating organization. Malcolm X had once been a protégé of the religious leader but was suspended from the NOI because Elijah Muhammad believed he was becoming too influential. A year later, Malcolm X was shot to death by NOI members while speaking at a rally in New York City. Another former student, Cassius Clay (a.k.a. Muhammad Ali), reportedly refused to be drafted into the U.S. military out of fear of being killed by Elijah Muhammad (who opposed the draft and had avoided it himself). In the 1970s Ali told reporter Dave Kindred : “I would have gotten out of [the Nation of Islam] a long time ago, but you saw what they did to Malcolm X. . . . I can’t leave the Muslims. They’d shoot me, too.”

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Old 05-21-2019, 10:54 PM #15
Chollo Vista Chollo Vista is offline
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Originally Posted by Tony Trick-Pony View Post
"White people are potential humans- they haven't evolved yet."

Louis Farrakhan.

[Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]

So yes, I consider him and the NOI a hate group.

As far as crimes against whites, I'm not saying they have but I will be researching it now and see.

One point I need to bring up though, is the murder of Malcolm X. Malcolm X was an inspiration to millions and this group murdered him when he wanted to prove that Elijah Muhammad was sleeping with those young girls. Am I right? I mean, they murdered him over that. Great leader and inspiration for their cause was that expendable over that one thing? Just murder him? It doesn't say much for their cause.

And I'm not saying they haven't or can't do some good things. Vigilantism is often a good thing imo. And if they helped clean up the area, I praise them for that. Crime is tough to fight and having brave men step up and fight it is always inspiring.

I just don't want to wear rose-colored glasses either way. Like any group, they have their faults. This shows that they did some good work though and I praise this, although I don't think they'll take me seriously since I am only a potential human.
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Lol like I said, I don't agree with everything the minister has said.

But I'm not going to go out of my way to criticize him, especially when he has done more positive for the black community than most leaders combined.

Again, I will always resent what they did to Malcolm because he wanted to expose Elijah for sleeping with underage girls, but at the same time, I know no movement is perfect and for the sake of the big picture, I can find common ground.

I take it you're white, correct?

How many white men have you disagreed with over the course of your life? Do you cut contact with them for the rest of your life, attack them or publically ridicule them for the rest of your life, or depending on their relationship to you, do you find common ground and move on?

There has been an unwritten peace treaty amongst whites that allows them to disagree, but never to the point to where it will turn to another civil war. Same with other European nations, there's a clear unwritten peace treaty. Yes, they disagree on certain things, but never to the point to where it turns to WWIII.

Blacks need to enact similar principles internally on a lower scale.

Last edited by Chollo Vista; 05-21-2019 at 11:05 PM.
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:03 PM #16
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I was not aware that Cassius Clay actually dodged the draft because of fear of Elija Muhammad. Wow.

Under Elijah Muhammad’s leadership, the NOI grew to be an influential, controlling, and intimidating organization. Malcolm X had once been a protégé of the religious leader but was suspended from the NOI because Elijah Muhammad believed he was becoming too influential. A year later, Malcolm X was shot to death by NOI members while speaking at a rally in New York City. Another former student, Cassius Clay (a.k.a. Muhammad Ali), reportedly refused to be drafted into the U.S. military out of fear of being killed by Elijah Muhammad (who opposed the draft and had avoided it himself). In the 1970s Ali told reporter Dave Kindred : “I would have gotten out of [the Nation of Islam] a long time ago, but you saw what they did to Malcolm X. . . . I can’t leave the Muslims. They’d shoot me, too.”

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You can pick and choose any negative aspects you like from any religion.

Priests molest little boys in the catholic church. Christian pastors have a laundry list of things they do that are wrong in today's society.

You're picking rudimentary details and taking light away from the fact that if allowed to do work, the NOI and other black leadership like it could save millions of lives and decrease recidivism rates of those incarcerated. This is a win win for America and the economy is it not?

Say what you want about Ali and him dodging the draft because of the NOI, but Ali is recognized as not only one of thr greatest boxers in the history of the sport, but also one of the best leaders in the history of thr world. Do you not owe that to the NOI as well?

Brother Malcolm was an ex drug addict and criminal that was a Pim and in and out of prison. In a matter of 5 years, the NOI turned him into one of the brightest intellectuals black America has ever known.

I say that because these are some of the same divide and conquer tactics many whites have used throughout history. I'm pretty sure the NOI speaks on these tactics.

I can say many things about Christianity, Catholics, etc and point out their dirty little secrets, but I think it's safe to say some of these religions have done more positive for most than negative. Who knows, maybe it's subjective, but I think you get my point.
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:08 PM #17
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:17 PM #18
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Lol like I said, I don't agree with everything the minister has said.

But I'm not going to go out of my way to criticize him, especially when he has done more positive for the black community than most leaders combined.
Okay. I would like to see some examples and for your argument, maybe we could see some thing the NOI has done for black people. I'm not doubting you. Just, for the sake of the thread, could you list some examples? It will add to the discussion and I'm always eager to learn.

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Again, I will always resent what they did to Malcolm because he wanted to expose Elijah for sleeping with underage girls, but at the same time, I know no movement is perfect and for the sake of the big picture, I can find common ground.
That's fine.

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Originally Posted by Chollo Vista View Post
I take it you're white, correct?

How many white men have you disagreed with over the course of your life? Do you cut contact with them for the rest of your life, attack them or publically ridicule them for the rest of your life, or depending on their relationship to you, do you find common ground and move on?
Well, haha. I find common ground unless murdering a friend of mine or leader is involved. That's definitely a step too far. Agree or agree to disagree and all is fine of course, but my God. Murder of a top leader? That's very damning.

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Originally Posted by Chollo Vista View Post
There has been an unwritten peace treaty amongst whites that allows them to disagree, but never to the point to where it will turn to another civil war. Same with other European nations, there's a clear unwritten peace treaty. Yes, they disagree on certain things, but never to the point to where it turns to WWIII.
Things like this make me question how serious you are. Haha. An unwritten treaty is an idea or a concept but it doesn't exist for a reason. In WWI and WWII, people of European blood killed each other in massive numbers. Every group has done this and don't kid yourself. It can all happen again. Tbh, I'm surprised we've had relative peace for this long. And I don't believe in this contract you speak of because I've seen no evidence of it.

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Blacks need to enact similar principles internally on a lower scale.
No group will ever do this. There are too many other factors involved, man.
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:23 PM #19
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Chillin still pretending he’s black
bigjavi973

This little troll has been harassing me for years spreading lies and defamation.

Not that it matters, but Larry, Gloveking and myself have all confirmed my race/ethnicity.

Enough is enough.

Especially when me and Tony are trying to have a productive peaceful conversation.
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:29 PM #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chollo Vista View Post
You can pick and choose any negative aspects you like from any religion.
This is true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chollo Vista View Post
Priests molest little boys in the catholic church. Christian pastors have a laundry list of things they do that are wrong in today's society.
This has been well documented on numerous occasions. The majority of people and Christians are very much against this. These violations have never been proven to be the majority within Christianity. Crimes will happen in any group-no matter how big or small.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chollo Vista View Post
You're picking rudimentary details and taking light away from the fact that if allowed to do work, the NOI and other black leadership like it could save millions of lives and decrease recidivism rates of those incarcerated. This is a win win for America and the economy is it not?
I praised them for doing this work in Baltimore. Any help they or any other group, regardless of reputation, can do, is something I'm all in favor of and I've always been big on vigilante movements when the police fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chollo Vista View Post
Say what you want about Ali and him dodging the draft because of the NOI, but Ali is recognized as not only one of thr greatest boxers in the history of the sport, but also one of the best leaders in the history of thr world. Do you not owe that to the NOI as well?
I can see where the NOI can take credit for his activism, but his boxing achievements, no. Ali got into the gym and the ring and did all that with the help of his corner and his own talents and hard work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chollo Vista View Post
Brother Malcolm was an ex drug addict and criminal that was a Pim and in and out of prison. In a matter of 5 years, the NOI turned him into one of the brightest intellectuals black America has ever known.
Certainly I give credit for them helpig to turn his life around. Excellent work, seriously. I have to point out that churches also have turned lots of people's lives around for the better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chollo Vista View Post
I say that because these are some of the same divide and conquer tactics many whites have used throughout history. I'm pretty sure the NOI speaks on these tactics.

I can say many things about Christianity, Catholics, etc and point out their dirty little secrets, but I think it's safe to say some of these religions have done more positive for most than negative. Who knows, maybe it's subjective, but I think you get my point.
Yeah, I think the positive has been bigger than the negative. When dealing with large numbers, it's inevitable to have bad cases. Good discussion!
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