Worst scorecard ever?

[Jack Flak]

I read that some present day boxing 'expert' called the 118-110 Canelo scorecard for the Golovkin-Alvarez fight posted by Adelaide Byrd for the worst scorecard he had ever seen.


While the card is clearly atrocious, it surely isn't the worst ever is it?


What do you think? Is the 118-110 for Leonard against Hagler up there? What about 72-65 Ali in his win over Young?

Don't mean to go off-topic, but I heard you are a mod. That true?

I ask because I wanted to know where you make suggestions to improve the site.

[BattlingNelson]

Don't mean to go off-topic, but I heard you are a mod. That true?

I ask because I wanted to know where you make suggestions to improve the site.

Welcome here.

Yes.

You can make suggestions here: https://www.boxingscene.com/forums/f...splay.php?f=15

[Jack Flak]

Welcome here.

Yes.

You can make suggestions here: https://www.boxingscene.com/forums/f...splay.php?f=15

Happy to be here. And thanks.

[billeau2]

So that's how MMA got started, interesting. Early on everyone said that MMA would replace boxing with the next generation, but I am not sure that's going to happen. Back in the 70s when ice hockey took off in popularity everyone was saying that the NFL was dead, but look how that worked out: the damn Stanley Cup is on ESPN 2. Not ESPN, but ESPN 2. LOL (They give away tickets to the Panthers down here in Florida; terrible attendance.)

So I am curious to see how MMA progresses.

You know it's funny I try not to be a dick with anyone, but every once and a while I slip and act badly myself, and I even had one post deleted because I said something I shouldn't have and I was thankful they gave me a second chance without a ban . . .but I was trying really hard not to set that guy off ... I gave him my opinion (as weird as I sometimes can be) but I went out of my way to complement him on his opinions and insights (I kinda saw I was getting involved with someone who seemed angry) but it didn't matter he just couldn't control himself. I backed off and didn't let it ramp up but when the MOD (BN) asked him to watch his language, even before he replied I kinda knew he was going to get banned, and sure enough he just went after BN with vulgarities. You would think that someone with that many posts would know not to curse out a MOD.

I felt like I was dealing with Donald Trump, if I didn't agree with everything he said he was going to lose his temper.

When he comes back I am going to avoid that man.

That wasn't you... He needed something to set him off and it could have been anyone/anything.

Fighting has so many social cues... Human beings truly are great at inventing reasons to spill each other's blood... But we see something interesting happen, in some of the more warrior like cultures ideas and implements are invented so people do not have to die...So Scottish Clansmen and Samurai, for example, both have an ethic of not killing the other if it is not necessary, for example in a challenge match...The Samurai during reconstruction of japan had idle time and sharp weapons, so...the Bokan and other wooden training weapons became the way to settle a fight in a manner where a winner could be decided and both men walk away. meanwhile in the West?

people like the poster you ran into (lol) would learn sword technique from a mercenary swordsman, to protect his honor! He would then wait to get set off socially, picking a fight...same attitude really... and then when someone would say "hey no reason to curse at me, lets just be reasonable here, they would demand a fight to the death in a duel, claiming their honor had been insulted, Lol.

This scenario persisted quite regularly. It did so to the point where people were getting killed in these things, or mortally wounded! My Wife's great grandfather fought one in Louisiana at the election Pol, which were known places, similar to Detroit, or Baltimore, in the bad areas at night... he killed three of them and died himself, still have one of the guns used. Many politicians of that time, people connected to politics fought in these...Andrew jackson for example.

Anyhow, it got bad and when Figg was coming up during the end of the renaissance, as well as in this country, men of honor had became more inclined to avoid confrontation. So the problem was, how to reintroduce the manly arts to the people who could patronize them. In Europe it was easy with the tradition of the duel. Now men could cross fists with gloves, instead of swords and live to fight another day! This also persisted in the New World to the point where Naturally...men wanted to know "what style is supreme"...sound familiar? Was it the devilish oriental Japanese with his open handed strikes? the Anglo saxon boxer with his feints and punches? or the catch as can wrestler with the country boy strength of grip?

Long story short... When in a place like Shang hai , or hawai, or any other number of international areas the local champion of boxing wanted to test the catch can wrestler, or the Ju jutsu man test his mettle against the strong man...these became known as..........................Exhibitions! And it stuck. That was the way these contests took form. brazil has an equally long history of these contests, these exhibitions of fighting prowess pitting combat experts against one another in a "friendly" match.

And so it was that Mixed martial arts found its way on the map by using this idea of exhibiting a skill against another type of opponent. and these matches have existed many moons before the present day MMA.

[billeau2]

That is an interesting point. Years ago they use to talk about how a fighter, who had laid-off for a while, could in the course of one fight, 'fight himself back into shape.' I never quite understood what that was suppose to mean; or how that could be true, but if you take what you're saying that they use to be more fighters than athletes you can see how the 'shape' they needed to be in was less demanding than what is needed today and they probably could over the course of a fight, fight themselves back into good enough shape to compete. I suspect that old adage just wouldn't fly today considering the level of athletic conditioning fighters reach for today.

the guys were strong by virtue of the lifestyles back then...often getting them back into the swing of things meant finding a way to get them away from the saloon. Sullivan actually hired Muldoon, a wrestler and fitness buff to grab him from the bar. Greb was such a fighting man that in later years he fought with one eye down and many other injuries. It was a different mindset.

[billeau2]

How many fights were scheduled for 15 rounds 40-50-60 years ago? Only a tiny, tiny percentage, I would imagine.

Only world title, regional title (like European championships) and some national title fights, where fought over 15 rounds.

And even those who reached the 15 rounds stage spent the majority of their career fighting 10-rounders (or less).

And then we of course had the VAST majority of all boxers, who never graduated beyond 10 rounds.

So how could the reduction of title fights from 15 to 12 rounds have had such a massive impact on boxing AS A WHOLE, that boxers went from being tough, hard-fighting men... to amateur-like sissies, who are mostly occupied with not getting hit?

Well a lot of things have contributed to the amateur style being favored. but a champion fight should be 15 rounds because the last three rounds have for many of these fights been crucial to showing the stamina, effectiveness, heart of one guy over the other and, because the puncher needs more rounds and ithout these last rounds it gives an unfair advantage to the guy avoiding the puncher.

I don't know how many fights were 40 rounds, 60 rounds either...But a championship fight should include at least 15 rounds if for no other reason, to give some more information about who won the fight. 15 rounds is 3 more rounds to score, to show one fighter gaining an advantage over the other fighter.

[Anthony342]

That wasn't you... He needed something to set him off and it could have been anyone/anything.

Fighting has so many social cues... Human beings truly are great at inventing reasons to spill each other's blood... But we see something interesting happen, in some of the more warrior like cultures ideas and implements are invented so people do not have to die...So Scottish Clansmen and Samurai, for example, both have an ethic of not killing the other if it is not necessary, for example in a challenge match...The Samurai during reconstruction of japan had idle time and sharp weapons, so...the Bokan and other wooden training weapons became the way to settle a fight in a manner where a winner could be decided and both men walk away. meanwhile in the West?

people like the poster you ran into (lol) would learn sword technique from a mercenary swordsman, to protect his honor! He would then wait to get set off socially, picking a fight...same attitude really... and then when someone would say "hey no reason to curse at me, lets just be reasonable here, they would demand a fight to the death in a duel, claiming their honor had been insulted, Lol.

This scenario persisted quite regularly. It did so to the point where people were getting killed in these things, or mortally wounded! My Wife's great grandfather fought one in Louisiana at the election Pol, which were known places, similar to Detroit, or Baltimore, in the bad areas at night... he killed three of them and died himself, still have one of the guns used. Many politicians of that time, people connected to politics fought in these...Andrew jackson for example.

Anyhow, it got bad and when Figg was coming up during the end of the renaissance, as well as in this country, men of honor had became more inclined to avoid confrontation. So the problem was, how to reintroduce the manly arts to the people who could patronize them. In Europe it was easy with the tradition of the duel. Now men could cross fists with gloves, instead of swords and live to fight another day! This also persisted in the New World to the point where Naturally...men wanted to know "what style is supreme"...sound familiar? Was it the devilish oriental Japanese with his open handed strikes? the Anglo saxon boxer with his feints and punches? or the catch as can wrestler with the country boy strength of grip?

Long story short... When in a place like Shang hai , or hawai, or any other number of international areas the local champion of boxing wanted to test the catch can wrestler, or the Ju jutsu man test his mettle against the strong man...these became known as..........................Exhibitions! And it stuck. That was the way these contests took form. brazil has an equally long history of these contests, these exhibitions of fighting prowess pitting combat experts against one another in a "friendly" match.

And so it was that Mixed martial arts found its way on the map by using this idea of exhibiting a skill against another type of opponent. and these matches have existed many moons before the present day MMA.

When the Gracies competed in MMA type fights they became known as Vale Tudo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_tudo

They learned traditional jiu jitsu from Mitsuyo Maeda and then refined it into their own style of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu then spent decades issuing open challenges in anything goes style fights to prove the effectiveness of their new martial art. Helio Gracie refined it so a smaller fighter could use the art effectively and took the lead among his brothers. He so rarely lost that he became more known for his losses than wins, one to a former student Valdemar Santana who knocked him out on the ground after approximately 3 hours and 40 minutes and Masahiko Kimura, for who the Kimura armlock is named after, which Kimura used in this match to win. Gracie's arm was broken, which caused a referee stoppage. His record mentions one other loss by DQ due to some sort of illegal technique.

But that's kind of how it started to become more well known anyway. Then they taught their skills to their sons, one of which got the idea to move to the US, knowing that if they became known here, they would be known worldwide. When boxing promoter Art Davie saw that son, Rorion Gracie, interviewed in a Playboy article, he got in touch with him, they came up with the idea of a full contact, no holds barred tournament pitting any fighting style vs. each other and the UFC was born. There were some tough years when only Direc TV could show the fight cards on PPV, but they survived and now they oversaturate the market like WWE and NFL does these days. So the Gracies and Davie became the ones to profit the most from that idea of a style vs. a style. Now it's more a fighter vs. a fighter, although you still get matchups where there's one predominant style vs. a different style for the opponent, like the upcoming UFC lightweight title fight in 3 weeks with Khabib Nurmagomedov, the tough Sambo submission wrestler from Dagestan fighting Conor McGregor from Ireland, known mostly for a boxing style and a little bit of wrestling, so that's mostly a striker vs. grappler match that fans are looking forward to.

[HOUDINI563]

What most do not remember is the complete safety first, refusal to engage strategy Young fought vs Ali. So bad that the ref gave Young two standing eight counts for sticking his head outside the ring. I loved Young back in the 70’s but you don’t win the worlds hwt championship fighting in that manner.

[billeau2]

When the Gracies competed in MMA type fights they became known as Vale Tudo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_tudo

They learned traditional jiu jitsu from Mitsuyo Maeda and then refined it into their own style of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu then spent decades issuing open challenges in anything goes style fights to prove the effectiveness of their new martial art. Helio Gracie refined it so a smaller fighter could use the art effectively and took the lead among his brothers. He so rarely lost that he became more known for his losses than wins, one to a former student Valdemar Santana who knocked him out on the ground after approximately 3 hours and 40 minutes and Masahiko Kimura, for who the Kimura armlock is named after, which Kimura used in this match to win. Gracie's arm was broken, which caused a referee stoppage. His record mentions one other loss by DQ due to some sort of illegal technique.

But that's kind of how it started to become more well known anyway. Then they taught their skills to their sons, one of which got the idea to move to the US, knowing that if they became known here, they would be known worldwide. When boxing promoter Art Davie saw that son, Rorion Gracie, interviewed in a Playboy article, he got in touch with him, they came up with the idea of a full contact, no holds barred tournament pitting any fighting style vs. each other and the UFC was born. There were some tough years when only Direc TV could show the fight cards on PPV, but they survived and now they oversaturate the market like WWE and NFL does these days. So the Gracies and Davie became the ones to profit the most from that idea of a style vs. a style. Now it's more a fighter vs. a fighter, although you still get matchups where there's one predominant style vs. a different style for the opponent, like the upcoming UFC lightweight title fight in 3 weeks with Khabib Nurmagomedov, the tough Sambo submission wrestler from Dagestan fighting Conor McGregor from Ireland, known mostly for a boxing style and a little bit of wrestling, so that's mostly a striker vs. grappler match that fans are looking forward to.

Vale Tudo indeed, and if you look at the history of entertainment in brazil, they had catch can wrestling, and other set ups when the festivals would come to town. There is actually an antipathy that exists between the Vale Tudo guys and the wrestlers who would challenge them. Very interesting stuff. im amazed there isn't more boxing lore in Brazil actually. But folk wrestling was also a big part of brazilian MMA tradition before the Gracies.

The GRacies commercialized these aspects, there are actually Charles Atlas like ads for Gracie Judo! this being before they became world known. Also, because of the Japanese connection to the Portugese there were many traditions of fighting with traditional martial arts and the many forms used for fighting. Luve Libre or something? is karate with joint locks, for example...

[Anthony342]

Vale Tudo indeed, and if you look at the history of entertainment in brazil, they had catch can wrestling, and other set ups when the festivals would come to town. There is actually an antipathy that exists between the Vale Tudo guys and the wrestlers who would challenge them. Very interesting stuff. im amazed there isn't more boxing lore in Brazil actually. But folk wrestling was also a big part of brazilian MMA tradition before the Gracies.

The GRacies commercialized these aspects, there are actually Charles Atlas like ads for Gracie Judo! this being before they became world known. Also, because of the Japanese connection to the Portugese there were many traditions of fighting with traditional martial arts and the many forms used for fighting. Luve Libre or something? is karate with joint locks, for example...

Oh yeah, Luta Livre or Lucha Libre on Spanish.

And speaking of bad scorecards, from the fan reactions, it sounds like last night's Golovkin vs. Alvarez 2 fight is a strong candidate as well, as many are saying Triple G got screwed again by fighting in Nevada and against a Golden Boy fighter, this time losing his middleweight belts as well on a majority decision. Almost reminds me of Holmes-Spinks or Hopkins-Taylor where it's believed that one guy can't catch a break against the other with the judges.