Rating old heavyweights?

[billeau2]

Greatly skilled? Meehan out boxed him. Tunney made him really look bad. And he was hit plenty on film by the likes of Firpo who wasn't skilled and Carpentier who was skilled until he got hurt after round one. Also had to come back to beat Bill Brennan on film

Dempsey is better know for speed and two fisted power. That and his savage attack which sometimes could be dirty ( Low blows and kidney shots ). His skills were merely good. Defense for sure was not his thing.

As for tough, yeah to a degree. There's a 1 round KO loss by Fireman Flynn of all people on his resume.

- -The Meehan bouts were in the Shipyard circa WW1 where Willie worked and were 4 rd fund raisers. He beat Langford and other top contenders in this format.

Ali knocked out by
Kent Green in that era format and so on.

The views on Dempsey are so polarized. How can a forum of fans have such disparate views on a fighter some consider the best heavy that ever lived? While others consider little more than a tough powerful heavyweight?

Then you read the back and fourth, a lot of it makes sense from both sides... I look at two things regarding Dempsey:

1) By a freak of chronology, many of the men who considered Jack the very best, had seen up to Mike Tyson, some? had seen Johnson, and some beyond Tyson. This has to count for something. This includes Tunney who fought Greb also...

2) You have to be excellent to have survived Tunney. I personally consider Tunney underestimated as an ATG. Win, or lose, The Dempsey fights were close affairs, and as JAB said? If that long count was a little less long... Dempsey beats perhaps the best light heavy ever.

Just my two cents...

[Anthony342]

The people wanted it, Wills wanted it, the promoter wanted it, the money was present.

I even have a picture of the certified check that was waiting for Dempsey in accordance with the contract that he broke. lol

My hunch is that Dempsey didn't want to risk losing to a black fighter. That's the only thing that makes sense to me. It's the same reason he refused to fight Joe Jeannette in that exhibition, but stated that he would fight any white man. Even TWO white men. It couldn't get any more obvious than that. He wrote an article himself where he is quoted as saying, "I'll fight any white man they put on, but I didn't agree to fight a colored boy." If that doesn't make it clear, I don't know what will. And the crowd booed him relentlessly, so obviously once again, the people wanted it.

Totally. Probably didn't want to lose the title to a black fighter because it still wasn't considered acceptable by him and most of white America until Joe Louis came along. Also sounds like people didn't wanna see another flamboyant Jack Johnson type champ that ticked off white America. Even when Louis won the title, his management had special rules for him, like being humble in the press, not standing over a knocked down opponent and never being photographed alone with a white woman. Even a class guy like Joe Louis had to be told to walk on egg shells to be more marketable.

[travestyny]

Totally. Probably didn't want to lose the title to a black fighter because it still wasn't considered acceptable by him and most of white America until Joe Louis came along. Also sounds like people didn't wanna see another flamboyant Jack Johnson type champ that ticked off white America. Even when Louis won the title, his management had special rules for him, like being humble in the press, not standing over a knocked down opponent and never being photographed alone with a white woman. Even a class guy like Joe Louis had to be told to walk on egg shells to be more marketable.

True! I think that's why Harry Wills was so supported. Everyone knew he was a class act. Family man who lived a clean life.

I always thought Dempsey didn't want to be treated like Jim Jeffries in case he lost the bout. It would have damaged his reputation and you'd have those idiots calling him a race traitor. He wasn't a racist as far as I believe, but certainly some of the people he surrounded himself with, like his wife, were.

[Dr. Z]

The views on Dempsey are so polarized. How can a forum of fans have such disparate views on a fighter some consider the best heavy that ever lived? While others consider little more than a tough powerful heavyweight?

Then you read the back and fourth, a lot of it makes sense from both sides... I look at two things regarding Dempsey:

1) By a freak of chronology, many of the men who considered Jack the very best, had seen up to Mike Tyson, some? had seen Johnson, and some beyond Tyson. This has to count for something. This includes Tunney who fought Greb also...

2) You have to be excellent to have survived Tunney. I personally consider Tunney underestimated as an ATG. Win, or lose, The Dempsey fights were close affairs, and as JAB said? If that long count was a little less long... Dempsey beats perhaps the best light heavy ever.

Just my two cents...

Tunney is a bit undervalued today, but I disagree strongly with the thought that Dempsey vs Tunney were close affairs.

They were one-sided for Tunney, and many forget Tunney put Dempsey down too. Dempsey had one good round, the long count round. IMO Tunney had fresh legs and could have gotten up sooner.

[QueensburyRules]

- -U always nail the "didn't know part like a master of stoopid.

As I corrected, the ratings were published in 1925 that has led to the largest brain shortcircuitry of a forum I've witnessed...priceless

- -Lest the forum dummy's ferget!

[JAB5239]

- -Lest the forum dummy's ferget!

So the '25 ratings were based on the year 1925 and came out in 1926. What is hard about understanding this? It's been explained to you over and over. Just like the 1924 ratings...the first year the did their annual ratings, came out in 1925. Wouldn't make much sense to push year end ratings 3 months before the end of the year to get them out in time. It does make perfect sense to finish out the year and have the complete ratings and send them out a few months later though, doesn't it, Kickball?

[billeau2]

Greatly skilled? Meehan out boxed him. Tunney made him really look bad. And he was hit plenty on film by the likes of Firpo who wasn't skilled and Carpentier who was skilled until he got hurt after round one. Also had to come back to beat Bill Brennan on film

Dempsey is better know for speed and two fisted power. That and his savage attack which sometimes could be dirty ( Low blows and kidney shots ). His skills were merely good. Defense for sure was not his thing.

As for tough, yeah to a degree. There's a 1 round KO loss by Fireman Flynn of all people on his resume.

Tunney is a bit undervalued today, but I disagree strongly with the thought that Dempsey vs Tunney were close affairs.

They were one-sided for Tunney, and many forget Tunney put Dempsey down too. Dempsey had one good round, the long count round. IMO Tunney had fresh legs and could have gotten up sooner.

I will look at the fight again... I always give the benefit of the doubt that a puncher as somehow "lucky" to land and would automatically attribute it to Dempsey being succesful. You did say that was a good round for Dempsey... I want to rewatch anyway... So will get back on this.

[louis54]

The views on Dempsey are so polarized. How can a forum of fans have such disparate views on a fighter some consider the best heavy that ever lived? While others consider little more than a tough powerful heavyweight?

Then you read the back and fourth, a lot of it makes sense from both sides... I look at two things regarding Dempsey:

1) By a freak of chronology, many of the men who considered Jack the very best, had seen up to Mike Tyson, some? had seen Johnson, and some beyond Tyson. This has to count for something. This includes Tunney who fought Greb also...

2) You have to be excellent to have survived Tunney. I personally consider Tunney underestimated as an ATG. Win, or lose, The Dempsey fights were close affairs, and as JAB said? If that long count was a little less long... Dempsey beats perhaps the best light heavy ever.

Just my two cents...

Alot and I mean alot of boxers as well as experts thuoght dempsey was fantastic.... Mainly cause he was

[billeau2]

Alot and I mean alot of boxers as well as experts thuoght dempsey was fantastic.... Mainly cause he was

I hear you.

[The Old LefHook]

Just an aside on Tunney. Interesting guy. Obviously well read, intelligent, imo one of the very best fighters period... There is a thread here and some of Tunney's musings are posted, I do not remember if I posted them, or someone else...

With all his intellect Tunney had some strange conclusions, the kind that make one think and question how much obvious hyperbolic remarks should be taken in earnest. For example, Tunney believed that a boxer would have no trouble besting an Ape, an even a Gorilla, given the qualities of a good punch... That is a crazy thing to say!

Apes never lost their thick skulls to make space for more brain. A gorilla body punch would break a heavyweight's spine in half.