Joe Louis vs both Klitschkos

[nomadman]

15 rounds or 12?

Old school gloves or new school gloves?

Old school ref or new school ref?

"Supplements" allowed or disallowed?

[kendom]

15 rounds or 12?

Old school gloves or new school gloves?

Old school ref or new school ref?

"Supplements" allowed or disallowed?

You can look at it from both the old school scenario and the new school scenario if it makes that much of a difference

[bojangles1987]

Louis was an assassin who was always cool and calculating. What the Klit fans cannot comprehend is the difference in skill and power between Louis and any fighter they've ever faced. There is no doubt in my mind Vitaly is a better fighter than Carnera overall, but his style would be predictable and easy to figure out for someone like Louis. That doesn't make it an easy fight for him, but I do think the outcome would end up being the same.

I wish both sides could agree on that much, because I don't see how it's a debate. Louis is not only IMMENSELY more skilled than anyone either Klitschko has ever fought, he's unquestionably more skilled than either Klitschko themselves. When people say Louis would end up chasing Wlad or Vitali and reduced to throwing one punch like every other opponent they fight, it makes me wonder if they have ever seen Joe Louis fight, it's such an incomprehensible thing to say.

I don't know who would win, the time gap between their eras is too much, but come on, there should be no debate who was the more skilled between Louis and the Klitschkos. Even in grainy, choppy, black and white it is obvious how much more skill Louis had.

[Sugarj]

Baer was the opposite of comfortable and controlled, I wouldnt put him in the same category as Louis and Dempsey.

Also, Max Baer had a freakish 81' reach advantage.

True on all counts. I was only referring to his ability to deal well with those larger than him.

[Bigdaddy_Vh]

The only way Louis wins is if the klit sisters came up in his time and had the same means of training that were afforded back in those days. The athletic advancements of today are far superior added to the fact that the bros have phds in this field. I do believe that had these fights taken place in the thirties that louis would have knocked wlads dick in the dirt. Vitali would have had a decent chance

[Spartacus Sully]

15 rounds or 12?

Old school gloves or new school gloves?

Old school ref or new school ref?

"Supplements" allowed or disallowed?

old school they get pwnt

new school they get pwned

[JAB5239]

The only way Louis wins is if the klit sisters came up in his time and had the same means of training that were afforded back in those days. The athletic advancements of today are far superior added to the fact that the bros have phds in this field.

Than why is it Louis could do 15 rounds in a tough fight but both brother are sucking wind by the 5th in the few tough fights they've had?

[nomadman]

You can look at it from both the old school scenario and the new school scenario if it makes that much of a difference

Yes it would make a great difference, the last one especially.

The ref would make quite a difference too, since Wlad gets away with a lot of crap that an old school ref from Louis's era wouldn't have stood for, nor would the crowds.

Smaller gloves would increase both the Klits power (which in Wlad's case is rather scary) whilst larger gloves would decrease Louis's and possibly affect his punching style.

Would be silly to overlook any of these points.

[them_apples]

Yes it would make a great difference, the last one especially.

The ref would make quite a difference too, since Wlad gets away with a lot of crap that an old school ref from Louis's era wouldn't have stood for, nor would the crowds.

Smaller gloves would increase both the Klits power (which in Wlad's case is rather scary) whilst larger gloves would decrease Louis's and possibly affect his punching style.

Would be silly to overlook any of these points.

the 2 oz difference would be an ever, ever so slight change for big men like this. Half the time the type of glove matters more. Mexican gloves for example. Also the weight distribution. Fight gloves are tight bound gloves. Fighters who fought in both era never seemed to complain. (foreman using 8's in his prime, 10's in his comeback, but also the noticable difference in speed lost with age and shorter punching technique).

[nomadman]

there are too many factors deciding punching power. Velocity and weight are some, but what about technique. Some men are big men but don't use their entire body/weight.

That's true. There is also sharpness, timing and cleanness of connect as well.

Louis was a very sharp puncher at times, and tended to get great leverage on his hooks when fighting at a certain range (mid distance). He was also capable of throwing a pretty good overhand right that tended to land cleanly and solidly more often than not. Much of his power came from technique, accuracy and cleanness of connect, rather than brute force or extreme bodyweight distribution.

Vitali K on the other hand is a heavy puncher, who uses a big and solid frame to rain down thudding blows from all angles. His punches tend to have a cumulative effect on opponents, not really stunning them but battering them into submission. Both capable of getting a stoppage but aside from that they're not really comparable power types.

What makes Wladimir K such a chilling puncher is that he combines both types of power. He's sharp, quick and extremely accurate as well as having a substantial weight, height and strength advantage over his competition. Of course his combination punching ability outside of the one two is next to none, but then when you punch that hard you don't really need to do too much else.

That said, Louis probably doesn't hit harder than the K bros, but p4p it's close, and he's a lot more likely to catch an opponent in the right spot and stop them, as opposed to the K bros robotic approach.

What do you mean by "robotic" here? Their movement patterns? Their ability to adapt? If it's the latter then neither Wlad not Louis strike me as being particularly adept at adjusting to adverse circumstances, even though both have fought their way out of hairy situations in their time. As punchers, both men are/were extremely accurate and loose. Wlad most certainly isn't robotic in that sense.

If you're talking about mindset, then Vitali, ironically, may be the least robotic of all three. He's shown himself to be consistently good at adjusting and improvising in the ring and tends to throw very weird punches in fights that you'll never in a million years read of in any textbook. Stiff as a board however, and awkward looking, but he nonetheless makes it all work, and against some pretty smart and experienced boxers like JC Gomez.

Another example is Tyson and Bruno, I think Bruno actually had a harder right hand, but Tyson was so fast when a big man catches you like that it's lights out. Tyson was always considered the more devistating puncher.

Getting hit in the forehead by 1500 lbs of force is a lot better then even 500 to the chin, especially if you aren't braced for it.

It depends on your build I think. Some fighters have phenomenal chins but relatively normal builds. Others are built like fridges but have otherwise fairly average chins tucked in amongst all their muscle and fat. The former can take horrible clean punches straight to the chin without wilting, the latter can absorb brute force punishment to the cranium for round after round. Put them in with the 'wrong' type of puncher however, and their weakness tend to be exposed. Very few fighters in history could have withstood a Tyson combo though. That's just too much.

A large degree of Louis's success came from his combination punching too, but his approach to landing his shots differed quite a bit from Tyson's. A lot of opponents in Louis's day tended to in-fight a lot more as a matter of course. Even Buddy Baer, a large man who should have been using his height advantage to box Louis from the outside, chose to close distance and engage. To that end Louis was often able to get off his punches with full leverage without fear of getting smothered or having to adjust to changing distances. Neither of the Klits, Wlad especially, would allow him to do that, and he lacked the footspeed, head movement and raw explosive aggression of early Tyson to really make it work.

By Tyson's day many of the contenders were larger, taller men who were adept at outside fighting and weren't ashamed of clinching up to avoid having to engage in close. Nonetheless, Tyson's physical abilities allowed him to catch those fighters with big shots and either knock them off balance or stun them, leaving them prone to a barrage of follow up blows. Louis would not be able to emulate that on a consistent basis, and he would be eating a lot of hard shots as he tried to work his way in.

I've seen 215 lb men take beatings from 250 lb men and not go down, so the chin factor is always there as well. Generally head and skull sizes don't always scale in proportion to body sizes. Naturally big boned men tend to have bigger hands and skulls though, usually having better chins as well.

In my opinion Louis has a pretty solid noggin, so he could hang in there with the klitschkos just like Chisora did. I think weight will become a factor though, because Louis won't use his lighter weight to box, move, or cut angles. No he's coming to bang and he's at a massive size disadvantage.

Gotta disagree there. Louis did not have solid punch resistance. He was extremely vulnerable to getting KD'ed or stunned, and was badly hurt by fighters not exactly famed for their power or accuracy. Very good recovery abilities, at least in his prime and against the rather crude and limited opposition he was facing, but that's a different kettle of fish entirely. I think it's very unlikely he'd be able to take the sort of shots Chisora was absorbing. Aside from the weight difference, the two men have a very different build, Chisora thick-set and squarish skulled with a short bull neck, Louis relatively lean and narrow shouldered with an average neck thickness and a largish head. Chisora has also never been down, and was able to withstand Helenius's punches for twelve rounds. I think he's got a proven chin.