Weaknesses in prime Tyson.

[Mugwump]

I find it interesting that so few people are willing to discuss the psychology of fighters in general and Tyson in particular.

Sure, it's the hardest of all attributes to judge. After all - if a fighter possesses a good jab this is something which can be gauged empirically. But if a fighter has some disconnect deep within the synapses of the brain not even a CAT scan can provide answers.

But psychology is critically important. It was the reason Tyson fell apart against Buster Douglas, Lennox Lewis and Evander Holyfield in particular.

On the flipside, who knew that when Tyson climbed into the ring against Douglas (a man who everyone had written off as a journeyman deadbeat) little did he know that a steel-hard resolve had crystallised within the mind of his opponent who had resolved that the only way he was leaving that ring as a loser was in a wooden box.

Psychology is THE great imponderable in all sport. I understand why people are reticent to touch the subject because we lack the tools to analyse it critically. That said, I've always respected Tyson for being one of the few fighters who seems acutely aware of his own psychological flaws. As he pensively contemplates in his own documentary - the scars he bore from a brutal and miserable childhood left him completely unable to function against anyone who could deliver upon him the kind of bullying he routinely dished out to others.

[Juan Acero]

He had no heart and a serious lack of character, because of his dominance in the 80’s we couldn’t see it exposed.

Agreed

A strong man physically.
A weak man mentally.

[Mugwump]

Whilst Tyson was crippled by a host of terrors which stemmed from his miserable childhood I think it's a fundamental mistake to equate this with a lack of "heart".

I thought he showed plenty of guts against Buster Douglas. In the Lewis fight he continued to soak up brutal punishment long after his corner should have done the decent thing, thrown the towel in and saved their man from unnecessary suffering.

I've heard plenty of armchair critics claim he took the "easy way out" against Holyfield by chewing off his ear. And yet Holy's rough-house antics that night could easily have resulted in a disqualification. So sure, Mike was wrong to do what he did. But only after his opponent had busted him up so badly his mind flipped.

Psychologically broken? Yes. A coward? No.

[BKM-]

But psychology is critically important. It was the reason Tyson fell apart against Buster Douglas, Lennox Lewis and Evander Holyfield in particular.

I would say the reason was their long snapping jabs that didn't allow Tyson to set anything up, their ability to shut Tyson down on the inside and skillfully pull this off with an unrelenting gameplan.

[Mugwump]

I would say the reason was their long snapping jabs that didn't allow Tyson to set anything up, their ability to shut Tyson down on the inside and skillfully pull this off with an unrelenting gameplan.

I agree that those tactics were certainly important. But being hit with a good jab isn't usually known for encouraging a fighter to bite chunks out of his opponent's ears.

I mean, look at the Lewis fight. From rounds three or four Tyson is literally standing there ALLOWING himself to take a brutal beating like some kind of flagellating monk.

What his corner were thinking I really have no idea. It's shameful that they didn't throw in the towel because their man was completely blown in the head.

By the way - I really do believe the ****tail of psychotropics Mike was being pumped with in those days didn't help in any way. Indeed, I'd say they exacerbated his problems.

[BKM-]

I agree that those tactics were certainly important. But being hit with a good jab isn't usually known for encouraging a fighter to bite chunks out of his opponent's ears.

I mean, look at the Lewis fight. From rounds three or four Tyson is literally standing there ALLOWING himself to take a brutal beating like some kind of flagellating monk.

What his corner were thinking I really have no idea. It's shameful that they didn't throw in the towel because their man was completely blown in the head.

By the way - I really do believe the ****tail of psychotropics Mike was being pumped with in those days didn't help in any way. Indeed, I'd say they exacerbated his problems.

Well Mugwump we've been here for a long time and I may be confusing you with someone else, but didn't you used to stick it to Tyson fans and their excuses all the time? I'm seeing more of the opposite there.

Blaming it on drugs or him 'allowing' them beat him etc. None of that holds up to me anymore, I used to go along with it but now I when I watch the fights I see a man unable to overcome a physical disadvantage against opponents while being outworked and out-skilled.

Yes the mental aspect is crucial too but not make or break. Would giving Tyson a hypothetical amount of mental strength allow him to beat those guys? I don't see him ever beating Evander or Lewis tbh.

[Mugwump]

Well Mugwump we've been here for a long time and I may be confusing you with someone else, but didn't you used to stick it to Tyson fans and their excuses all the time? I'm seeing more of the opposite there.

Blaming it on drugs or him 'allowing' them beat him etc. None of that holds up to me anymore, I used to go along with it but now I when I watch the fights I see a man unable to overcome a physical disadvantage against opponents while being outworked and out-skilled.

I think my position on Tyson has been pretty consistent for years. I'm not offering any excuses for the guy. Nor am I trying to claim he was a better fighter than results suggest.

From the very beginning I said he was a ferocious bully whose trainers did a first class job of hiding the fact that he couldn't handle being bullied by an opponent and was likely to implode under such circumstances.

Yes the mental aspect is crucial too but not make or break. Would giving Tyson a hypothetical amount of mental strength allow him to beat those guys? I don't see him ever beating Evander or Lewis tbh.

I don't see the point in engaging in "what ifs". We could just as easily say if Lennox Lewis was as steely focused as, say, Floyd Mayweather he would never have lost to two fighters who were considerably below his standard.

I mean, I DO think that Tyson in his prime was a remarkable athletic specimen whose low centre of gravity, heavy hands and killer instinct made him a fearsome prospect for any opponent. I also think that he possessed a very underrated defensive game with excellent head and lateral movement. He had truly world class punching technique. He put together vicious combinations and he had an aura which positively dripped menace.

HOWEVER, despite all of these formidable advantages he was - from the very beginning - fatally flawed insofar as the demons which plagued him as a child and teenager were liable to manifest themselves in self-destructive fashion should he face anyone who refused to be dominated in the ring and returned punishment in equal measure. When Tyson says in his own words, "I am TERRIFIED OF BEING BULLIED (see the Tyson documentary" - he wasn't making some throwaway statement. He really means it!

Watch the Lewis fight during the mid rounds when it is clear that Tyson's head is completely GONE. He's standing in the middle of the ring trapped in a spiral of pain, confusion and self-loathing and allowing Lewis to use him as a punching bag. This isn't a fight. Tyson is punishing himself.

D'Amato knew about this problem from the beginning and he did everything possible to keep it a secret. How do you hide the fact that a fighter is afraid of being bullied? By creating the myth of the "Baddest Man on the Planet" and carefully selecting a bunch of opponents who would provide sufficient competition without threatening to give the game away.

D'Amato always gets credit for being a "father figure" for Mike and providing a way out of the life of criminality but I think he did nothing more than exploit Tyson. He realised that if he could focus the rage which blazed within the pit of his soul he could create boxing's equivalent of Frankenstein. But in doing so he set in motion a tragedy which was ALWAYS going to burst forth in a sport where no matter how tough you think you are there are always guys out there who are tougher.

Could a "well adjusted" Tyson beat Holyfield or Lewis? In theory - sure! But this is my point - Tyson was what he was precisely BECAUSE of his weakness. A mentally well-adjusted Tyson is quite literally a contradiction in terms.

[BKM-]

Could a "well adjusted" Tyson beat Holyfield or Lewis? In theory - sure!

Lets hear this theory then please. I know you love your psychology theories regarding Tyson but I don't see any boxing related insight there to be quite frank, what I'm seeing is a cop-out.

How is 5'10 Tyson with short arms and weak clinching(they never trained him to be effective in the clinch did they) who fades in the mid rounds(it's physically impossible for him to keep up that pace of combination punching and upperbody movement/defense for 12 rounds. Has nothing to do with 'mental this or that'. He carries a very large amount of muscle mass on his frame that cannot be supplied with enough oxygen) gonna beat Holyfield and especially Lewis, 'in theory'?

[Mugwump]

Lets hear this theory then please. I know you love your psychology theories regarding Tyson but I don't see any boxing related insight there to be quite frank, what I'm seeing is a cop-out.

I'm sorry but these aren't my "psychology theories". They are Tyson's own.

How is 5'10 Tyson with short arms and weak clinching(they never trained him to be effective in the clinch did they) who fades in the mid rounds(it's physically impossible for him to keep up that pace of combination punching and upperbody movement/defense for 12 rounds. Has nothing to do with 'mental this or that'. He carries a very large amount of muscle mass on his frame that cannot be supplied with enough oxygen) gonna beat Holyfield and especially Lewis, 'in theory'?

Are you *seriously* asking me to provide boxing related insight into how a fictional Mike Tyson could beat Lewis or Holyfield?!?

Tyson LOST - for reasons which I've exhaustively detailed. You seem desperate to separate Tyson's mental condition from what you define as "boxing related" matters. I consider such thinking flawed since a fighter's psychological make-up is as much a part of boxing as his physical attributes, skill-set and tactical proficiency.

Could a fictional Tyson with none of the psychological hang-ups and all other attributes in place defeat Holyfield or Lewis (or anyone else for that matter)? Sure. How? Erm .... by landing a solid punch on his chin maybe???

I know I'm only indulging this silliness by saying this but ... tell me - if you DON'T believe this is in any way POSSIBLE please explain why you think both Lewis & Holyfield fought so CAUTIOUSLY in the early rounds? Do you seriously believe that neither fighter had any concerns that they might just get tagged with a bomb if they weren't careful??

At the risk of going out of a limb I'd say both knew very well that defeat could come quickly and painfully if they failed to respect the potent danger Tyson presented.

[BKM-]

I'm sorry but these aren't my "psychology theories". They are Tyson's own.



Are you *seriously* asking me to provide boxing related insight into how a fictional Mike Tyson could beat Lewis or Holyfield?!?

Tyson LOST - for reasons which I've exhaustively detailed. You seem desperate to separate Tyson's mental condition from what you define as "boxing related" matters. I consider such thinking flawed since a fighter's psychological make-up is as much a part of boxing as his physical attributes, skill-set and tactical proficiency.

Could a fictional Tyson with none of the psychological hang-ups and all other attributes in place defeat Holyfield or Lewis (or anyone else for that matter)? Sure. How? Erm .... by landing a solid punch on his chin maybe???

I know I'm only indulging this silliness by saying this but ... tell me - if you DON'T believe this is in any way POSSIBLE please explain why you think both Lewis & Holyfield fought so CAUTIOUSLY in the early rounds? Do you seriously believe that neither fighter had any concerns that they might just get tagged with a bomb if they weren't careful??

At the risk of going out of a limb I'd say both knew very well that defeat could come quickly and painfully if they failed to respect the potent danger Tyson presented.

You keep using cop-outs to hide your lack of boxing knowledge, Mugwump. This is the peak of your boxing analysis:

by landing a solid punch on his chin maybe???

Being a smug armchair psychologist is a lot easier than explaining technique and the ins and outs of the actual fights.

I suspect you're actually a Tyson fan in reality, hiding behind the "could have" narritive by explaining away all of the man's flaws to 'emotional damage', substance abuse, dong king etc. the usual victimization pattern.

It couldn't be because Tyson in reality was not better than what we saw and it was because of actual technical and physical flaws, not poor poor Tyson was just bullied as a kid and everyone wronged him in his career as a boxer.

With your narrative it allows you to uphold this mythical "woulda coulda" mystique. I believe I'm far more realistic.

Go ahead and clone his genes, pseudo psychologist. Raise Mike #2 with a great childhood and get Kevin Rooney to train him along the way and lets put him in a time machine back to the 90s. You know what happens? Even "Iron will Tyson" loses to a guy like Lewis. Styles make fights. Too short, not enough reach, too weak in the clinch, too much muscle on his frame which make it physically impossible to sustain his pace past the mid rounds as Lewis continues to jab his face off and uppercut him as Mike tries to get inside, then gets clinched and pushed around, rinse and repeat.