The case for floyd higher on ATG list than Duran

[THEFRESHBRAWLER]

It isn't as simple as "oh he's this old and he's that old". Leonard was an incredible Olympian too and a stoppage win over prime Benitez (who peaked very young) was far more impressive than a debatable win over Trout (I felt Trout won) and Mosley being HOF is irrelvent. He was washed up. The same Mosley was stopped by Bumdine. You just have to watch the fights to know Leonard is better than Canelo can ever be.

Canelo never fought down to a catch-weight that affected his ability to make weight again certainly not against a top fighter. He also got a gift win over Lara afterwards and Lara isn't as good as Tommy Hearns.

Be honest have you studied those era's and watched the fights in depth or is it mostly boxrec? I'm not saying this to be a dick I'm genuinely asking.

So what is your criteria for prime. Seems like you keep changing it everytime it doesn’t fit your agenda. Canelo turned pro at the age of 15 totally different circumstance than SRL. He was facing grown men at the age of 15 No way he wasn’t in his prime at age 23 with 45 fights.

I watched every fighter you mentioned hours and hours of film. I’m curious to know honestly have you ever stepped in the ring or boxed before? Because that line about non title fights don’t matter leads mead to believe you are just one of those fans that watches a few clips and studies Wikipedia a few times. Wilferd Benavidez was 21 years old when he fought SRL who had he beat before he faced SRL? Let me guess you’re going to use his amateur record as a reason as to why he was in his prime but a 23 year old Canelo wasn’t.

Didn’t SRL fight Hearns at catchweight? Didn’t he win his light heavyweight title at catchweight? You can’t just look at wiki you have to actually take into consider context. I love all of the older generation fighter but I will not put them on a pedestal and make them invincible.

[CubanGuyNYC]

Yeah, he's one of my favorites to watch. Great style and head-to-head in mythical matches I think the only guy post 1960's I'd pick over him at welterweight would be Ray Leonard and that includes the great Jose Napoles and Tommy Hearns. Two guys I'd confidently pick against anyone at 147 - Trinidad, Mayweather, Mosley, Curry, Pacquaio, De La Hoya etc; Like I said I'd probably pick him against any middleweights post-Hagler with the exception of Roy Jones.

I think he won all four Griffith fights. It's sad that history doesn't really reflect that.

It is indeed a different game which makes this all-time talk so difficult and often dumb. Mayweather fans have a tendency to throw it in your face and that you must agree with them but it wreaks of them selling you something they either aren't educated enough to claim or simply don't believe it themselves. It's not enough to be "great" they have to hear that he's the greatest.

Lol Floyd is one of the greatest self-promoters in boxing history. Gotta give him that. He really sold that “TBE” bullshit on a lot of people. But, as you say, many of his followers simply don’t know boxing history well enough. Shit, I’m more knowledgeable about boxing and its history than probably 99% of fans and I still don’t think I know nearly enough.

I’ve read more about the Rodriguez-Griffith matches than I’ve actually seen, so I can’t opine, but it’s certainly interesting to get your take. I’ve read that Ali, having trained in the same gym as Luis, learned a thing or two by observing him. It seems evident when you watch Rodriguez fight. The similarities are there. Luis was a terrific boxer. Sadly underrated and even forgotten by those new to the game.

[THEFRESHBRAWLER]

Genaro Hernandez and Diego Corrales weren't nearly as good as Ken Buchanan LOL. Buchanan is enshrined into the IBHOF and holds wins over the great Ismael Laguna. Hernandez (who I love and know people in his family personally) will not enter and isn't in Buchanan's class. Corrales isn't on the ballot even which you'd think he would be given that he died and is a recent name involved in savage fights but he rightly isn't.

I named 4 fighters and out of the 4 that’s who you chose to compare to Ken Buchanan smh. Juan Marquez will likely get in the HOF also. Didn’t Duran lowblow a Buchanan and didn’t he duck Buchanan years later? Was he suspended and stripped for ducking out on two contracts he agreed to rematch Ken Buchanan?

[chrisJS]

So what is your criteria for prime. Seems like you keep changing it everytime it doesn’t fit your agenda. Canelo turned pro at the age of 15 totally different circumstance than SRL. He was facing grown men at the age of 15 No way he wasn’t in his prime at age 23 with 45 fights.

I watched every fighter you mentioned hours and hours of film. I’m curious to know honestly have you ever stepped in the ring or boxed before? Because that line about non title fights don’t matter leads mead to believe you are just one of those fans that watches a few clips and studies Wikipedia a few times. Wilferd Benavidez was 21 years old when he fought SRL who had he beat before he faced SRL? Let me guess you’re going to use his amateur record as a reason as to why he was in his prime but a 23 year old Canelo wasn’t.

Didn’t SRL fight Hearns at catchweight? Didn’t he win his light heavyweight title at catchweight? You can’t just look at wiki you have to actually take into consider context. I love all of the older generation fighter but I will not put them on a pedestal and make them invincible.

Yes, I've stepped in the ring before and have fought. I didn't do it full-time or get paid but I'm sure I've seen more hours in the ring than most on this site. I bolded the Benavidez for LOL and you are accusing ME of being a Wikipedia fan. LOL.

WILFRED BENITEZ beat the great Antonio Cervantes and hall of fame fighter Carlos Palamino to win his 140 and 147 titles respectively. He dominated Palamino and to beat Cervantes, who's a great fighter at the age of 17 is so impressive. He also looked very, very good in those fights. Ignore the boxrec split decision in the Palamino fight the fight was not close and even the judge admitted the sun was in his eyes when explaining his ludicrous scorecard.

Canelo has looked a lot better in his late 20's than his early 20's that's for sure and he's not a great fighter anyway. A good one but not in the class of a Cervantes let alone a Hearns, Hagler or Duran.

Leonard-Hearns I was not a catch-weight bout, no. I'm glad I could clear that up for you. Yeah, his light-heavyweight championship is bogus but it's not really factored in when we talk about Leonard as some great accomplishment. It's his overall game and his fights with Duran, Hearns, Benitez and Hagler which come up far more than Lalonde.

Nobody is saying these older fighters are invincible. No fighter is but you are obviously a wins and losses boxrec guy so do you subscribe to Joey Maxim being better than Robinson and Calzaghe greater than Jones and Hopkins based on what you've posted in here? Is Marciano better than Louis and Ali? I think you are grossly overrating modern fighters to prop up your own agendas.

[chrisJS]

I named 4 fighters and out of the 4 that’s who you chose to compare to Ken Buchanan smh. Juan Marquez will likely get in the HOF also. Didn’t Duran lowblow a Buchanan and didn’t he duck Buchanan years later? Was he suspended and stripped for ducking out on two contracts he agreed to rematch Ken Buchanan?

Marquez at 147 wasn't a good win for Mayweather. Marquez had fought at 126 when Floyd was at 154 and just 12 months before the fight had never fought above 130. He'd barely had three fights at 130 and two at 135. That was a farce. Marquez is my all-time favorite fighter but I think he'd have his hands full with a prime Buchanan.

Duran MAY have lowblowed Buchanan. It's hard to tell and it's true there was no re-match but Duran had dominated that fight. They were very close together and even if it was low it's very to imagine a ton of leverage on that shot wherever it landed. I don't think Buchanan was the type to quit though so I won't rule it out.

Do you think Ward-Kovalev II was a fair ending? That fight was much closer, the low blow much clearer and obviously more deliberate and easier to avoid.

[THEFRESHBRAWLER]

Yes, I've stepped in the ring before and have fought. I didn't do it full-time or get paid but I'm sure I've seen more hours in the ring than most on this site. I bolded the Benavidez for LOL and you are accusing ME of being a Wikipedia fan. LOL.

WILFRED BENITEZ beat the great Antonio Cervantes and hall of fame fighter Carlos Palamino to win his 140 and 147 titles respectively. He dominated Palamino and to beat Cervantes, who's a great fighter at the age of 17 is so impressive. He also looked very, very good in those fights. Ignore the boxrec split decision in the Palamino fight the fight was not close and even the judge admitted the sun was in his eyes when explaining his ludicrous scorecard.

Canelo has looked a lot better in his late 20's than his early 20's that's for sure and he's not a great fighter anyway. A good one but not in the class of a Cervantes let alone a Hearns, Hagler or Duran.

Leonard-Hearns I was not a catch-weight bout, no. I'm glad I could clear that up for you. Yeah, his light-heavyweight championship is bogus but it's not really factored in when we talk about Leonard as some great accomplishment. It's his overall game and his fights with Duran, Hearns, Benitez and Hagler which come up far more than Lalonde.

Nobody is saying these older fighters are invincible. No fighter is but you are obviously a wins and losses boxrec guy so do you subscribe to Joey Maxim being better than Robinson and Calzaghe greater than Jones and Hopkins based on what you've posted in here? Is Marciano better than Louis and Ali? I think you are grossly overrating modern fighters to prop up your own agendas.

I’ll respond to this in a minute got tied up. Even though we got different opinions It’s cool talking boxing wit you. You know your stuff.

[chrisJS]

Lol Floyd is one of the greatest self-promoters in boxing history. Gotta give him that. He really sold that “TBE” bullshit on a lot of people. But, as you say, many of his followers simply don’t know boxing history well enough. Shit, I’m more knowledgeable about boxing and its history than probably 99% of fans and I still don’t think I know nearly enough.

I’ve read more about the Rodriguez-Griffith matches than I’ve actually seen, so I can’t opine, but it’s certainly interesting to get your take. I’ve read that Ali, having trained in the same gym as Luis, learned a thing or two by observing him. It seems evident when you watch Rodriguez fight. The similarities are there. Luis was a terrific boxer. Sadly underrated and even forgotten by those new to the game.

Yeah, apparently Ali studied a lot of those Cubans but was particularly impressed by Rodriguez. Luis Sarria had a lot of good Cuban fighters around that time like Rodriguez, Doug Vailant, Jose Stable, Florentino Fernandez, Angel Robinson Garcia and had trained Sugar Ramos and Jose Legra before they left for Mexico and Spain. He was one of the best teachers in boxing history. It must have been great to be around that gym around that time.

Rodriguez had it all. He was busy as hell throwing punches all the way. He had a laser of a right hand, would love to go to the body and had a beautiful jab. He could win a fight with that but had so many other weapons he usually put it all together. He had great legs and movement to go with that stamina too so overall just hell to face.

The Griffith fights are good but not truly great fights. Closely contested but poorly scored IMO. Griffith hit harder and their jabs almost cancelled each other out. Griffith working his way inside but a constant pattern was Rodriguez outworking him with lots of fast flurries to the body and landing the prettier, flashier punches when there was distance. I think the judges ignored the body work (which tired Griffith in most the fights) and scored for Griffith's popularity. I had the first two the closest with Rodriguez winning by a round or two in each but the third and fourth I don't think you can score those for Griffith. I think those were 10-5 or 9-6 type fights.

The first, third and fourth are on youtube. The second is a bit harder to find but I have it and can upload it if you would like? I think the most pleasing Rodriguez fights on the eye are the one's with Thompson, McClure, Moyer, Mims. Griffith had a tendency to make fights ugly so Rodriguez' art is more apparent in those ones.

[THEFRESHBRAWLER]

Marquez at 147 wasn't a good win for Mayweather. Marquez had fought at 126 when Floyd was at 154 and just 12 months before the fight had never fought above 130. He'd barely had three fights at 130 and two at 135. That was a farce. Marquez is my all-time favorite fighter but I think he'd have his hands full with a prime Buchanan.

Marquez had fought at 126 when Floyd was at 154

Floyd first fight at 154(he didn’t weigh in at 154 lol) was in 2012 Márquez fought Pacquio for the welterweight title in 2011 and then again in 2012 at welterweight. Your math is a little off

Great win for Floyd coming off of a 2 year layoff. Great win. Historians dont look at SRL winning the LHW title like that so don’t see how that can be used against Floyd. Rigo moves up 2 weight classes also for Lomachenco and that’s his best win.

[TonyGe]

[QUOTE=THEFRESHBRAWLER;19182789]I named 4 fighters and out of the 4 that’s who you chose to compare to Ken Buchanan smh. Juan Marquez will likely get in the HOF also. Didn’t Duran lowblow a Buchanan and didn’t he duck Buchanan years later? Was he suspended and stripped for ducking out on two contracts he agreed to rematch Ken Buchanan?[/QUOTE

As far as I know he didn't get stripped for not fighting Buchanan. I could be wrong. Do you have a link?

[chrisJS]

Lol Floyd is one of the greatest self-promoters in boxing history. Gotta give him that. He really sold that “TBE” bullshit on a lot of people. But, as you say, many of his followers simply don’t know boxing history well enough. Shit, I’m more knowledgeable about boxing and its history than probably 99% of fans and I still don’t think I know nearly enough.

I’ve read more about the Rodriguez-Griffith matches than I’ve actually seen, so I can’t opine, but it’s certainly interesting to get your take. I’ve read that Ali, having trained in the same gym as Luis, learned a thing or two by observing him. It seems evident when you watch Rodriguez fight. The similarities are there. Luis was a terrific boxer. Sadly underrated and even forgotten by those new to the game.

Here's a very good piece on Sarria.

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/w0804-sarria.html