Be fair and don't hate a guy because he beat your idol

[joeandthebums]

What about the 100lb advantage Valuev had, with the added advantage of age and no ring wars, which made him a 10-1 favourite?

Yes Holyfield was the underdog against Valuev, I think it was more in the region of 7.5/1. My mistake for overlooking his best performance in the final 10 years of his career.

But does it illustrates how good Holyfield was in his prime given how much he had slipped by 2008, and support my point regarding the irrelevance of weight advantage when looked at with regards to skill levels?

Really? So why did you say this?
"Would you of said Felix Diaz had a chance of beating Terence Crawford recently? A realistic chance?

To illustrate my point about a realistic chance of victory for the opponent of an elite boxer.

I could of used a recent heavyweight contest, but actually felt while Joshua-Klitschko was too competitive to be a good comparison for the majority of Holyfield's championship contests being discussed.

You aren't trying to learn anything, you are trying to be the teacher all the time, and you are VERY patronizing.

I am sharing my opinion supported by facts. I can learn by other members doing likewise or by being ill-informed and giving me the opportunity to re-check facts.

Clearly looking for ways to prove Holyfield was not worthy of admiration, and clearly never going to admit your argument was proven wrong.

I have already said;

I am actually a big Evander Holyfield fan. He was one of the main reasons for me why the heavyweight scene of the 90's was so enjoyable.

I don't want to debate with people like you. Agree or disagree with things I post, it is irrelevant to me, I do not hold any value to your opinions.

Given this thread and the manner you have engaged with those who did disagree with your opinions, this does not seem like a loss.

[chaconfan]

Dude quit with the 14st and whatever ounce ****. Say pounds you idiot.

And you don't get the point. His didn't need huge weight to compete at heavyweight that's why his highest weight back then stayed at about 210lbs or so.

His advantage over those big heavyweights was his speed, combination punching, boxing ability and his massive will to win.

No need to call me an idiot...especially since YET AGAIN you have totally misunderstood me, thereby making YOU the idiot.
Are you actually following the debate or do you just like butting in before you even know what you are butting in on?
My f#cking point is, that people keep trying to take his credit away, by saying that he used steroids and therefore had an advantage over his HW opponents. I am saying that even when he put weight on, he was still massively outweighed by his opponents and therefore had NO ADVANTAGE.
You are giving me sh#t without even understanding wtf I am saying.....and I will say 14st 10lbs whenever I want. Who the f#ck are you to tell me how I word my sentences?
I won't bother reading your reply, you can't understand basic conversation and are obviously a rude pr#ck.

[Marchegiano]

There are few unluckier guys in boxing history than Holyfield.
Robbed of Olympic gold, which made his pro purses far smaller.

My kind of preaching

Accused of headbutting which biased and unfair Tyson fans use as an excuse to take away credit from his great victory...despite Jim Gray showing Tyson the replays that CLEARLY show it was Tyson trying to get a butt in to get a DQ or NC.

Tyson fans are cry babies. Wah Buster were down for 13 second, wah Evander used his head,
wah Mike was out of prime. Honestly I don't give a **** what the man who claimed he had a broken back, claimed his titles and awards were worth less than trash, and votes for D-Trizzle even though he's a black muslim thinks or says. I'm a fan of Tyson too, but he's a stupid mother ****er completely oblivious to the world around him

He was robbed of becoming 5 time heavyweight champ due to being docked a point for a low blow that was a legit knockdown of Ruiz, but then Ruiz was not docked for a deliberate low blow straight after.

Ruiz was kinda **** and Real Deal should have handled him better, but yeah I can dig it.

He was robbed of becoming 6 time heavy champ after easily outpointing Valuev. This was the biggest weight discrepancy in heavyweight boxing history too btw.

I can't dispute it so I'm going to add that to my world records list.

Further credit is taken from him for apparently being a steroid cheat..despite the fact that he never tested positive in any fight before or after, and despite the fact that the weight jump was nothing compared to many other boxers. The cruiser limit is 14st 4 and he fought the almost 18st Bowe at 14st 10 having trained with a pro body builder and personal nutritionist.

PEDs testing has gotten complete absurd because of this ****. They're constantly witch hunting for any sign of PEDs abuse which leads more often than not to someone having their image tainted on trumped up charges.
Drugs are still rampant the only difference is now the waters are all muddy. in 1895 they may not have had the drugs we have now, but they also had no reason to hide their shenanigans so you at least had honesty. Today everyone is suspect. Even fat dudes. Do too well, probably roided...it's sad.

If he did take steroids it was only to help him get to heavyweight and since he had nothing in his system whilst in the ring, and whilst virtually all his opponents still outweighed him(some by a wide margin) he was hardly at an advantage.
Let us not forget, he was a natural light heavy, not cruiser.

The above, what difference would it make? Had Real Deal gotten larger exclusively on hard work we'd still be talking about his roid use just like we are. It's a BS subject IMO.

Let us not forget that the ring magazine said he would not last one round with Tyson.

Ring has always been a semantics based circle jerk of a rag. Today people give Oscar ****, but really Ring has never had integrity. Bias, stupid, and without real credentials. I don't give a **** what a sports writer has to say because their credentials are writing, not physics, not kinesiology, not history. Why would I give a **** about another guy's opinion just because he's written loads of opinions on boxing? I don't, either bring something to the table or **** yerself because creative writing ain't worth a ****-corn

Tyson fans who say Tyson was not at his best should not forget that Holyfield was said to be shot after struggling with former middleweight, Bobby Czyz.

I guess it's fair to say about both, but I don't really think of them as spent until the early to mid 2000s

Many people listen to biased, haters and have it in their heads that he was a dirty fighter and drug cheat, with absolutely not one replay or slo mo, to back the dirty fighter accusations up, and no positive drug test acquired.
Give the guy the credit he deserves, he was an absolute warrior, who ducked no one, and never bad mouthed his opponents.

Take them to church and baptize them in the glory of the real deal.

Good thread, I learned something.

[joeandthebums]

This was the biggest weight discrepancy in heavyweight boxing history too btw.

I can't dispute it so I'm going to add that to my world records list.

Valuev-Holyfield, weight difference of 96½ pounds.

Valuev-Haye, weight difference of 99 pounds.

Valuev-Barrett, weight difference of 105½ pounds.

[BKM-]

I could pick this post apart all day but the obvious part is here.

Many people listen to biased, haters and have it in their heads that he was a dirty fighter and drug cheat, with absolutely not one replay or slo mo, to back the dirty fighter accusations up, and no positive drug test acquired.
Give the guy the credit he deserves, he was an absolute warrior, who ducked no one, and never bad mouthed his opponents.

LOL. Nobody was better at the art of dirty boxing than Evander.

And I like Evander. I certainly like him more than the mushmouth ex convict.

[Marchegiano]

Valuev-Holyfield, weight difference of 96½ pounds.

Valuev-Haye, weight difference of 99 pounds.

Valuev-Barrett, weight difference of 105½ pounds.

Thanks bud, I'll look around a bit and see if I can't find anything more than 105.5

--edit--

Nikolay Valuev 333lbs - Clifford Etienne 217½lbs = 115½lbs

Millard Zender 300 - Bob Fitzsimmons 160 = 140lbs

Nikolay Valuev 348¼ - Alarim Uysal 189½ = 158¾lbs

[chaconfan]

Yes Holyfield was the underdog against Valuev, I think it was more in the region of 7.5/1. My mistake for overlooking his best performance in the final 10 years of his career.

But does it illustrates how good Holyfield was in his prime given how much he had slipped by 2008, and support my point regarding the irrelevance of weight advantage when looked at with regards to skill levels?



To illustrate my point about a realistic chance of victory for the opponent of an elite boxer.

I could of used a recent heavyweight contest, but actually felt while Joshua-Klitschko was too competitive to be a good comparison for the majority of Holyfield's championship contests being discussed.



I am sharing my opinion supported by facts. I can learn by other members doing likewise or by being ill-informed and giving me the opportunity to re-check facts.



I have already said;





Given this thread and the manner you have engaged with those who did disagree with your opinions, this does not seem like a loss.

WIKI SAYS HE WAS 10-1 UNDERDOG, BUT WHAT IS WIKI COMPARED TO YOU HUH!
The manner in which I have engaged those who disagree with my opinions is based on how and why they disagree.
One guy completely misunderstood my points twice and therefore decided I was an idiot. Then there is you whom I have shown keeps changing what you said that you said, in a desperate attempt to prove you are of a higher intellect, and an even more desperate attempt to do all you can to discredit Holyfield.
Plus I said, "you can win, and have the last word" yet you continue to pap on and on, when I clearly told you that I do not hold any value in your opinions and do not want to engage with you in any way. This reply is not a purposeful contradiction of that statement, it is merely a way to show others that I am not the villain.

[chaconfan]

Holyfield was accused of butting Tyson by Tyson and Tyson fans. The replays show that Tyson was the one doing the butting, and that cannot be disputed. Any clip where Holyfield accidentally clashed heads or did a low blow will be seen by Tyson fans and haters in general, to be an intentional foul.
Yet the thing is, Tyson DID intentionally foul, but it OK for him to do it, isn't it hypocritical, sour grapes, Tyson fans!

[Bundana]

Thanks bud, I'll look around a bit and see if I can't find anything more than 105.5

--edit--

Nikolay Valuev 333lbs - Clifford Etienne 217½lbs = 115½lbs

Millard Zender 300 - Bob Fitzsimmons 160 = 140lbs

Nikolay Valuev 348¼ - Alarim Uysal 189½ = 158¾lbs

Dustin Nichols 398 - Deontay Wilder 215 = 183lbs

Dustin Nichols 450 - Justin Jones 243 = 207lbs

[Marchegiano]

Dustin Nichols 398 - Deontay Wilder 215 = 183lbs

Dustin Nichols 450 - Justin Jones 243 = 207lbs

Wow, thanks pal.