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Old 03-25-2020, 07:26 AM #11
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is online now
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Originally Posted by billeau2 View Post
Wilder landed, Fury got back up... its perpetual and no one fight defines the interplay because it has to do with probability. And of course punchers are going to connect, but to have that connection work to its full capacity...a KO takes a few moving parts... Kind of like trying to plug a coffee maker in on a boat that is in a whirlpool, where you get the metal prongs to touch a bit, maybe get part of the plug in and sploosh, out it goes again. But when the plug goes in the power is there.

Its better understood when we watch fighters who are not considered great, but have that ability. lamont Brewster is a great example. He stops Golota looking like Dempsey! then starts losing on points to guys... Shanon Briggs who beat a guy with a punch in the last round!

Punchers have to have the opportunities. The old time guys were really smart and knew this, they were thinking with quantum physics, so to speak. It is how BlackBurn trained Louis! Not to worry, not to rush, just do the proper machinations and in any given fight the chances will be created by cutting the ring down.

Louis kept winning doing this. He even beat Conn with the same law of opportunity costs.

Now before you go into some angle about Louis this and that, and anyone else mentioned...try to understand the point about the puncher versus the boxer. The puncher needs more time on average to make sure he gets a certain amount of opportunities. I know you Rusty! You are going to talk about Conn and what he did, and about who beat this guy and Louis losing to schmelling... So please try to understand the skill and techique it takes to be consistent and confident in the way Louis was trained. Thats my point here.

BlackBurn understood the concept of opportunity cost.
Was that meant for me?
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Old 03-25-2020, 07:28 AM #12
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is online now
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Originally Posted by The Old LefHook View Post
The neighborhood of 5'11". 200 lbs. are still the perfect dimensions for a heavyweight.

Wilder KO'd a bunch of scrubs and got absolutely no one excited with it. Tyson Phony could not punch his way out of a cobweb, and cheated constantly to beat Wilder. He only put his fist halfway inside the glove to increase his reach, enabling himself to punch with a part of the glove filled with less padding.

He constantly rubbed his open glove in Wilder's face. But why believe me, check the replay, halfwits.

Dempsey, Louis, Marciano and Tyson are the most feared and revered heavyweights of all time, and the toughest, I assure you, by buggery. All would KO Fury in a fair fight. Besides that, Phony is a steroid cheater, as the farmer has stepped forward to announce that he sold no wild boar meat to the gypsy. Is Phony comfortable in a ring? Sure, but so what, he cheats constantly.
This is either hilarious or completely ******ed. So my apologies, but are you being facetious?
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Old 03-25-2020, 10:14 AM #13
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
But when have you seen a guy who was that bad make it that far in any other weight division?

Dob you think his fight with Loughran would've been so competitive if they were the same size?
That has been my position on the HW division from the beginning. Most heavyweights are not very good boxers, so when you do have one with some level of skill, they are usually successful. This is also why heavyweights rarely if ever end up on my P4P list, because their skills would rarely carry down to lower weight classes. Ali fighting with his hands at his sides and leaning back from punches as a lightweight or welterweight would have been catastrophic for him. But in a division full of slow, lumbering HWs with limited footwork, speed and defense, a fighter like him can flourish. He still had quite a bit of help along the way, but many of his opponents were either smaller, or very limited.

But then I look at a Wlad and his success was mostly due to his size advantage. Big, strong, with a good jab but not much else. At any other weight he would be sparked with that limited skillset. In fact, watch old film of Primo Carnera and you'll notice a striking overall resemblance to Wlad and the way he moves and fights.
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Old 03-25-2020, 10:21 AM #14
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I think the more advantages you have the better.So yes bigger is better.
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Old 03-25-2020, 11:59 AM #15
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Originally Posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
That has been my position on the HW division from the beginning. Most heavyweights are not very good boxers, so when you do have one with some level of skill, they are usually successful. This is also why heavyweights rarely if ever end up on my P4P list, because their skills would rarely carry down to lower weight classes. Ali fighting with his hands at his sides and leaning back from punches as a lightweight or welterweight would have been catastrophic for him. But in a division full of slow, lumbering HWs with limited footwork, speed and defense, a fighter like him can flourish. He still had quite a bit of help along the way, but many of his opponents were either smaller, or very limited.

But then I look at a Wlad and his success was mostly due to his size advantage. Big, strong, with a good jab but not much else. At any other weight he would be sparked with that limited skillset. In fact, watch old film of Primo Carnera and you'll notice a striking overall resemblance to Wlad and the way he moves and fights.
I've been saying this for years, except I've used Vitaly as a comparison more than Wlad.
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Old 03-25-2020, 01:02 PM #16
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Does the old adage "a great biger man will always beat a great smaller man' hold any truth to it?

?????????????????

Although I suspect that adage is relevant to the two men being naturally different size men, whereas it seems this question is asking should a man look to put on more muscle and still fight men his own natural size.

If that is the question, then I would say yes, making yourself stronger is always an advantage.

This new kid coming up big Teofimo Lopez and his likely encounter with Lomachenko may prove an interesting fight regarding this question.

All of the advantages (experience, technique, ETC.) seem to lie with Lomachenko, but that kid Lopez is one of the strongest looking LW's I've seen, and we may very well find out if strength alone is enough.
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Old 03-25-2020, 01:26 PM #17
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According to most women I've met, yes. But even they have their limits.
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Old 03-25-2020, 07:25 PM #18
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is online now
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Originally Posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
That has been my position on the HW division from the beginning. Most heavyweights are not very good boxers, so when you do have one with some level of skill, they are usually successful. This is also why heavyweights rarely if ever end up on my P4P list, because their skills would rarely carry down to lower weight classes. Ali fighting with his hands at his sides and leaning back from punches as a lightweight or welterweight would have been catastrophic for him. But in a division full of slow, lumbering HWs with limited footwork, speed and defense, a fighter like him can flourish. He still had quite a bit of help along the way, but many of his opponents were either smaller, or very limited.

But then I look at a Wlad and his success was mostly due to his size advantage. Big, strong, with a good jab but not much else. At any other weight he would be sparked with that limited skillset. In fact, watch old film of Primo Carnera and you'll notice a striking overall resemblance to Wlad and the way he moves and fights.
Yeah, but they are also competing against gravity and need more oxygen.

How athletic would a bigger Canto or Gomez really be?

Look at any lower weight fighter whose style changed as he moved through the weight divisions.
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Old 03-26-2020, 04:01 AM #19
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In heavyweight boxing does bigger mean better? I have my own opinion on this as I'm sure many of the old timers here know. I'm curious your opinion after reading an article about Wilder-Fury and what Buddy Mcagirt had to say. Here is the gist of it.

"These guys get strength and conditioning coaches who say, 'Oh, I'm going to get you bigger and stronger,'" McGirt said. "OK, but does that mean better?

What is your opinion?
- -You really are quite demonstrably daft to ask such a leading two dimensional question.
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Old 03-26-2020, 05:49 AM #20
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
And yet Wilder DID connect on Fury. Twice.

Show me a Heavyweight who put on a better display of pure Boxing than Fury did that night.

Lewis got KO'd by Rahman and McCall.

Ali got decked by guys like Cooper, Wepner and Shavers. He couldn't put away Bugner (who did what besides be big?), but twice stopped little Jerry Quarry and Floyd Patterson who were the most skilled fighters he ever faced.

Louis was stopped by an old Schmeling. He DID catch Conn... but again, SIZE (and experience).

Carnera didn't really beat Loughran (who was also old), but he did far better than many others ever did. And Sharkey actually KO'd Loughran.

Soooo yeah...

Wilder has his warts, but he's absolutely amazing.

To throw you a bone, after putting you in a pickle, I believe Fury would be much better if he were smaller. I think his size is a deficit. Make him Ali's size and you've got yourself a Heavyweight Willie Pep who can punch.



Fury has a 67% KO ratio against his peers.

Fury is 31. Ali was 32 when he fought Frazier in 78. His KO ratio was 68% at that time despite losing his best years for his resistance to the draft.
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