Why did Marciano Not Fight The Best of His Era.

[Omega-Red]

Marciano had little or no amateur experience, and he was brought along smartly. Thus the numerous fights with guys with not-so-great records. That is pretty typical of any fighter. Now, the fighters that you mention, that he should have fought...
Dan Bucceroni did several things to knock himself out of title contention. In 1951 he was kod in 5 by LHW Bob Murphy. In 1952 he was decisioned and knocked down 5 times by light punching LaStarza, and LaStarza was beaten twice by Marciano. In 1954, while Marciano was champion, Bucceroni lost3 times.
Tommy Jackson, in 1953, the year Marciano won the title, was fighting 6 round prelim fights. In 1954 he lost to Jimmy Slade and Nino Valdes. No title shot.
Valdes, from Nov 1952 to May 1953 lost 4 straight, one to LHW Harold Johnson, and one to Archie Moore, who subsequently fought Marciano.
Bob Baker was not a credible challenger because in 1953 he was kod in 1 by Bob Satterfield, and in 1954 he was stopped by Archie Moore in 9.
So it would seem that in fighting Moore and LaStarza and Charles, he was fighting the top contenders. At the time he retired Marciano had a very bad back and other aches and pains brought on by his continuous training; he was worn out so he retired. Had a prime and healthy Marciano fought Liston, I think he would have gotten past Liston's long left hand, worked his body and chopped him down with right hands in 12-14 rounds. Marty Marshall stopped liston in 2 by breaking his jaw and he was no Marciano.

I'm not just talking about Rocky fighting as a title holder, Im talking about the span of his career. For example, in 1952 when Rocky was a top contender (and had already beaten Rex layne in 51') he chose to take fights with Gino Buonovino and Bernie Reynolds. Buonovino at that point had lost half the fights he had ever fought, he had beaten no fighter of any significance, and he had lost 3 of the last 6 matches, including the last one where he was Koed in 1 round (and on top of that, Marciano had ALREADY beaten him in 1950 by TKO). He fought this man rather than a Bob Baker, a man who was a ranked fighter with one loss, and wins over Agramonte and Bivins; and there were plenty of other fighters who had FAR more business fighting a top ranked opponent like Rocky than Buonovino did, not the least of which was Clarence Henry who was a top 5 then a top 10 fighter from 1950-1953. Then Marciano fought Bernie Reynolds who while a step up from Gino, was far less deserving of the chance than say a Dan Bucceroni (or Baker, or Henry). His wins and record were much less impressive than theirs, he wasn't ranked, and he had lost, again, three out of his last six fights. He could have also fought them in 51' instead of Willis Applegate who has a career record of 12 and 16 and lost 5 of the 6 fights before he fought before Marciano. Heck, even after beating a ranked fighter like La Starza in 1950, I think he could have gotten better fights than Harold Mitchel (career record 3-16, lost 6 of his last 6 fights before Marciano ) Keene Simmons (career record 9-22, lost 5 of his last 6 fights before Marciano) or Eldridge Eatman 21-22 also lost 5 of his last 6 fights before Marciano).

My original point was this. Marciano's legendary status is largely based not on who he beat but on that 49-0 record. If that is the case, then whether that 49-0 record is made up of the top fighters of that era or not is I think an important question.

[hhascup]

I put this out before but here it is again:

Rocky fought his 1st top 10 contender in his 26th bout when he won a close split decision against LaStarza. He fought another 10 bouts before he fought another top 10 contender when he stopped Rex Layne. When he fought Moore that was only the 11th time Rocky ever fought a boxer that was rated in the top 10 when he fought them.

Lets look at the best boxers he fought:

Rocky fought LaStarza twice (1950 & 1953) and he was very good. A lot of people thought LaStarza beat Rocky in their 1st bout. Rocky would stop him in the return bout.

He also fought Walcott (1952 & 1953) and Charles (both in 1954) twice each. Charles had 90 bouts at that time and he had seen better days.

In his 1st bout with Rocky, Charles fought very well, and it was a lot closer then a lot of people thought it would be and people wanted to see a return go. Rocky stopped Charles in the return bout.

In the 1st Walcott bout going into the 13th round, the judges had Jersey Joe ahead 7-4, 7-5 and 8-4. Rocky stopped Jersey Joe in the return bout in 1 round.

He only fought another 10 boxers that were ever in the Top 10 by Ring at one time or another.

Phil Muscato (December 1949) was last rated in the top 10 in June of 1948, he fought Rocky the next year after losing 4 in a row and 5 out of his last 6.

Johnny Shkor (September 1950) was 29-18-2 at the time he fought Rocky in 1950. He was last rated in 1947. He just got stopped by Walcott and lost his last 7 of 11 bouts.

Rex Layne (July 1951) had a pro record of 34-1-2 with 24 knockouts going into the bout with Rocky. He was a very good boxer, in fact he was one of the best at that time.

Freddy Beshore (August 1951) was last rated in October 1950, Rocky fought him in August of 1951. He lost 7 of his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky.

Joe Louis (October 1951) who was still good, BUT way past his prime when he fought Marciano. His record was 61-1 with 52 KO's in his 1st 62 bouts. In his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky, Louis was 8-1 with only 3 KO's

Lee Savold (February 1952) was last rated in 1951, Rocky stopped him in 1952. Savold was also stopped 9 times before his bout with Rocky, including one by an aging Joe Louis.

Bernie Reynolds (May 1952), who lost 4 out of his last 6 bouts before boxing Rocky in 1952. Reynolds was past his prime as the last time he was rated was 1949.

Harry Kid Matthews (July 1952) was an excellent boxer with an excellent record, he was 51-0-1 with 36 KO's in his last 52 bouts before he faced Rocky, but he was really was a Light Heavyweight.

Don ****ell (May 1955) beat Matthews 3 times and LaStarza. He was also stopped 6 times before he fought Rocky, including a bout with Randy Turpin, a Middleweight, in which he out weigh Turpin by 12 pounds. He was dropped 3 times in the bout.

Archie Moore (September 1955), he was one of the Greatest Light Heavyweights ever.


Vingo was not a top 10 contender. He was 16-1-0 when he fought Rocky. In his last 7 bouts before he fought Rocky he had only 1 KO, and that was against a boxer that was making his pro debut.

Also, before he fought Rocky, he never fought a bout that was scheduled for more then 6 rounds, Plus he never fought a Main Event. AND he was just 2 days passed his 20th birthday.

Good Prospect, BUT far from a contender.

So if you go by this, the only boxers that were rated in the top 10 when he fought them were Walcott, Charles and LaStarza twice each, Louis, Moore, Layne, Matthews and ****ell. So that means he fought only 8 boxers, 11 times that were rated in the top 10 at the time he fought them.


Ali fought 38 different opponents 49 times in 61 bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. - 80.3279%

Louis fought 43 different Opponents 54 times in 71 (or 72) bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. - 76.056%

Rocky fought 13 different Opponents 16 times in 49 bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. - 32.653%

Ali fought 37 out of 61 opponents while they were in the top 10. He beat 32 of them 52.459%

Louis fought 35 out of 71 opponents while they were rated in the top 10. He beat 32 of them 45.07%

Rocky fought 11 out of 49 opponents while they were rated in the top 10. He beat all 11 of them 22.44898%

Ali fought boxers that had an average pro record of 33-5-1 when he fought them.

Louis fought boxers that had an average pro record of 38-10-2.5 when he fought them.

Rocky fought boxers that had an average pro record of 29.7-10.16-1.78 when he fought them.



This includes Light Heavyweight Champions in the percentages as well.

[Cardinal Buck]

excellent post

[elfag]

when did he ever fight a prime slick african american fighter? He retired because he knew Floyd Patterson had too much slickness for him to overcome! He was the poochiao of his era!

[Barn]

when did he ever fight a prime slick african american fighter? He retired because he knew Floyd Patterson had too much slickness for him to overcome! He was the poochiao of his era!

it was actually too much blackness

Anyway in all seriousness slick black fighter - Joe Walcott.

[McGrain]

Marciano met his #1 contender at a better rate than every champion, ever.

[hhascup]

Marciano met his #1 contender at a better rate than every champion, ever.

That he did, and you can't ask for anything more.

Walcott, LaStarza, Charles twice and Moore were all rated #1 when Rocky defended his title and ****ell was at #2. It would have been pretty interesting to see what would have happened if he fought Patterson. After all, Patterson handled Moore pretty easily.

[Juof]

Damn you guys know your boxing reading some of these replies and it's crazy how you guys know so much

[New England]

it was actually too much blackness

Anyway in all seriousness slick black fighter - Joe Walcott.

bernard the executioner, self-nominated mayor of all things slick and black, identifies heavily with walcott.

[New England]

Damn you guys know your boxing reading some of these replies and it's crazy how you guys know so much

henry hascup is a well respected historian and a member of the BWAA

he's also in his 60's

these things take time. serious time. tens of thousands of hours of reading and film


get cracking