Marciano, Walcott and Charles

[billeau2]

3 heavyweight champions who weighed no more than 185 pound that makes them small cruiserweights today and probably with day before weigh in maybe even light heavyweights, can anyone on here explain to me, let's say win me over that they would be able to beat the likes of super sized heavyweights Lennox Lewis, riddick bowe, vitali and wladmir? Is there much of a chance? I think they would just be destroyed way to small, but can u change my view on this?

You will hear so much crap on this subject if you revisit threads. One simply has to understand that fighters have always been in control of what they should weigh as a strategic consideration and that for most of boxing history I did not want to weigh a lot.

Lets go back in time to before Walcott and co....if we are getting ready to fight for a great length of time I want to he lean, strong and mean, and heres what people fail so badly at realizing. If you were to get big and try to take my head off from a squarred position? the milisecond your shoulder came past your center line I would gently grapple you, slightly helping to turn you just a little more past that line....then stick a hooking fist into your kidneys....HENCE! why people didnt want to be big, squared up and trying to do what most fighters like to pride themselves on doing today. No sir you would prolly want to be around 190 or so, with great toughness and endurance and be schooled in the mechanics of how to keep away, atack, hook, GRAPPLE, etc.

There is no reason in this world or the next why A guy like Charles could not bulk up and come in at around 210 or so at the very least...heck even today look at what a skilled throwback guy like Toney did to the legitmate heavies...Being called a tub of lard all the way as he beat the chiseled Rahman and....THREW more punches than the athletic Rahman to boot!

Skills make better fighters.
More determination make better fighters
Being ****ed with and a minority make hungry vis a vis better fighters
Better endurance and usable strength make better fighters
these are all traits lacking today
And....WEIGHT? does not make better fighters whether it be muscle, tallness or fat. Take a look at a pic of Prima Canera when he was rolling....Dude was a ****ing monster, all muscle to boot....So what?

The Klits can punch but have never had the endurance, the strenght of will, the footwork skills to be taken seriously by people who are really aware of those things. Lewis was a good fighter and more determined than many realize. But look at what happened when he met a talented manuverable smaller heavy. Mccall in particular had a lot of talent. No weight in the world would have saved Lewis from that shot.

[Scott9945]

Guys like Walcott would be alot bigger if they fought today with all the enhancements today's heavyweights have. We live in the steroid age and unfortunately the size does not make them better, punch harder or take a shot better.

No matter how jacked up Walcott got, he wouldn't be any taller and he wouldn't have a longer reach. That alone severely compromises his chances against the top big guys of the last 15-20 years.

[TBear]

According to Gil Clancy, once you get close to 200 pounds it doesn't make any difference. When these guys hit you they can get you out of there.

[LoadedWraps]

They would have trouble with top-skilled big heavyweights such as those you mentioned but I think they would have little trouble with all the other contenders in the past 20 years.

How big was Tyson and Tua? Both were about 5'10", 5'11", the same height as Marciano. Charles and Walcott were a little taller. And they did very well. So, height is not the issue. Nor is reach (although Marciano did have T-rex arms) Walcott and Charles had greater reaches than Tyson and Tua.

So - it comes to weight and fighting styles.

Punching power is not equal to weight alone (although being bigger helps you take a punch). Skinny pitchers in baseball throw as hard as muscled up pitchers. There was this golfer, a skinny little 175 pound guy who launched missiles. They even changed golf courses around to try to negate this guy's power. Over the years this golfer (Tiger Woods) filled out, put on muscle, but did his drives improve? Nope. Greater weight and muscle does not equal more power.

The style back then called for greater movement, more feints and greater endurance over 15 rounds. If you think that Frazier, Tyson and Tua could do well in today's era than Marciano would as well. Would Marciano bulk up? Maybe. Today's trainers would want him to do that. However rather than solely thinking about bringing yesterday's fighters into the present it's also interesting thinking about what would happpen if we brought today's fighers back to yesteryear.

Bring WK back to 1952 and he would be DQed for holding and forced to throw punches to keep Marciano off him. The Emmanuel Stewart style of keeping his head high and back out of reach would mean his body and (and then arms) would get a beating.

One last thing you have to ask yourself something - does the 30-40 pounds of fat on Arreola help his punching power? The mass is slightly greater but the speed/acceleration would be less as well as the timing.

I think this is the best answer. Well said.

[bklynboy]

No matter how jacked up Walcott got, he wouldn't be any taller and he wouldn't have a longer reach. That alone severely compromises his chances against the top big guys of the last 15-20 years.

Walcott was taller and had a greater reach than Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson and David Tua. Do you think those guys could reach the chin of LL and WK?

I think that there is no doubt that Frazier, Tyson and Tua could easy knock LL and WK out if they tagged them. What would save LL and WK is not their height but their skill and will to win.

[Scott9945]

Walcott was taller and had a greater reach than Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson and David Tua. Do you think those guys could reach the chin of LL and WK?

I think that there is no doubt that Frazier, Tyson and Tua could easy knock LL and WK out if they tagged them. What would save LL and WK is not their height but their skill and will to win.

All of those guys would be taking some serious punishment too. Tyson and Tua were owned by Lewis. And if we're being honest, Walcott wasn't wasn't nearly as big as Frazier, Tua, or Tyson, and supplements wouldn't change that.

[bklynboy]

All of those guys would be taking some serious punishment too. Tyson and Tua were owned by Lewis. And if we're being honest, Walcott wasn't wasn't nearly as big as Frazier, Tua, or Tyson, and supplements wouldn't change that.

I'm not saying that Tyson and Tua and Frazier would beat LL and WK. Only that their size wouldn't prevent them from doing so. LL was an ATG heavyweight. Tua wasn't. Mike Tyson had the potential but had issues galore.

Re Walcott - he was taller 6' with a longer reach 74" than was Frazier, Tyson or Tua. (thank you boxrec)

Again I'm not saying that Walcott would be favored against LL; or that Marciano would win. But I do think that WK would be forced to fight; we would see if he has that will to win.

Cus d'amato had a saying:

When two men are fighting, what you’re watching is more a contest of wills than of skills, with the stronger will usually overcoming the skill. The skill will prevail only when it is so superior to the other man’s skill that the will is not tested.

WK's will would be tested against Marciano

[Scott9945]

I'm not saying that Tyson and Tua and Frazier would beat LL and WK. Only that their size wouldn't prevent them from doing so. LL was an ATG heavyweight. Tua wasn't. Mike Tyson had the potential but had issues galore.

Re Walcott - he was taller 6' with a longer reach 74" than was Frazier, Tyson or Tua. (thank you boxrec)

Again I'm not saying that Walcott would be favored against LL; or that Marciano would win. But I do think that WK would be forced to fight; we would see if he has that will to win.

Cus d'amato had a saying:

When two men are fighting, what you***8217;re watching is more a contest of wills than of skills, with the stronger will usually overcoming the skill. The skill will prevail only when it is so superior to the other man***8217;s skill that the will is not tested.

WK's will would be tested against Marciano

I mostly agree with you. My point was that Tyson, Tua, Frazier were all naturally bigger men than Walcott or Charles. They were always heavyweights while Walcott and Charles were middleweights. Even if they were totally juiced I just don't see them getting past Lewis, Klitschko, etc. Despite their great skills, they would be fighting in the wrong weight class against the big guys.

[bklynboy]

I mostly agree with you. My point was that Tyson, Tua, Frazier were all naturally bigger men than Walcott or Charles. They were always heavyweights while Walcott and Charles were middleweights. Even if they were totally juiced I just don't see them getting past Lewis, Klitschko, etc. Despite their great skills, they would be fighting in the wrong weight class against the big guys.

Yes. I agree regarding Walcott and Charles. They didn't have enough pop to take out today's heavyweights - especially fighting with today's rules.

Of all the big heavyweights of the last 20 years only LL and Riddick Bowe would have done well in the earlier eras. (I'm not saying that they would be champions only that I think they had the ability and will to go far.)

Look how well a 37 year old Evander did against LL and how well Ray Mercer did. (If Mercer was in 1951 shape he would have come in at 205-210 or less and, in my opinion, would have done better, probably win the fight.)

I don't see WK doing well if he went back in time. He would not be able to clinch and he would be forced to fight. I think that Marciano would take him deep and that WK would have a harder time against Walcott and Charles than many people think. If WK wins we will have finally seen his best come out.

Think about it - how often does WK hook to the body? He doesn't. Doing so would bring his head in range to an overhand right (assuming a left to the body). Facing someone with a bob and weave would force WK lower than he wants and clinching would result in him losing points, being DQed and, as Ray pointed out, not being able to land more fights.

This era is not that good. I mean, I can't believe that Tyson Fury is a top rated heavyweight? WTF?

[LoadedWraps]

BTW I have a Marciano appreciation thread in the NSB section, after posting it I realized it was probably better suited for the history section.


BTW brooklyn boy, I have agree with everything you have said thus far except the part about Tyson Fury. He has talent, speed, natural size, and is underrated and has a great personality for boxing, I am a fan, that's for sure. Though without question, this is the weakest era of HW boxing ever.