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Old 12-22-2017, 05:47 AM #21
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Originally Posted by Mr Objecitivity View Post
Canelo Alvarez, although can be very lazy and inactive sometimes, can also be one of the most creative and effective offensive boxers in the world when he chooses to let his hands go. He has tremendous body punching and combination punching abilities.
Yeah, I looked at your criteria after I wrote my response and he would fall into that category. I guess my criteria would be a little different so he wouldn't necessary fit mine but he is good at all things you mentioned.
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Old 12-22-2017, 04:28 PM #22
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One can have all the power in the world, but unless they are able to land their punches on the correct areas of their opponent's body accurately with the correct type of punches, their punches aren't going to be very effective.

Guillermo Rigondeaux is statistically the best defensive boxer in the world when he boxed against Vasyl Lomachenko (or top 3 at the very least). I don't think there is any other boxer out there today who is slicker and more elusive than Rigondeaux (except perhaps Lomachenko himself). Yet, Lomachenko landed punches on Rigondeaux more frequently than any other boxer ever landed on Rigondeaux in Rigondeaux's pro career (and maybe even his amateur career included).

When Anthony Joshua faced Carlos Takam, who is elusive but nowhere near as elusive or as defensively as good as Rigondeaux. Joshua struggled to land his punches. Joshua struggled more to land his punches on Takam than Lomachenko against Rigondeaux.

Likewise, Golovkin similarly struggled more to land his punches on Canelo Alvarez than Lomachenko against Rigondeaux. Despite Rigondeaux being even slicker and better defensively than Canelo Alvarez

The same for Kovalev against Ward. Even Andre Ward isn't as good as Rigondeaux defensively or as slick / elusive. Yet, Kovalev struggled to land against Ward whilst Lomachenko had less difficulties to land on Rigondeaux.

Power is only a small part of 'offensive skills'. Timing, accuracy, shot selection, offense set up and etc are all integral parts too. So far, Lomachenko's 'offensive skills' have been tested the most because it was tested against the top 3 best defensive boxers in the world today.

As for power, when Lomachenko sits down on his punches and applies all of his body weight or most of his body weight to them, he punches as powerfully as any knockout artist / power puncher. Just ask Rocky Martinez how much power Lomachenko possesses when he got hit by a full powered Lomachenko punch. The same Rocky Martinez who did better against Mikey Garcia and lasted for more rounds (despite the general consensus being that Mikey Garcia is a more powerful puncher than Lomachenko).
I'm not saying power is the only factor but it is a major factor of being a top offensive fighter.


I think you listed loma top, even if he is a good offensive fighter he isn't and can't be better than guys who knocked others out clean, namely the ones I mentioned.
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Old 12-25-2017, 07:12 AM #23
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I'm not saying power is the only factor but it is a major factor of being a top offensive fighter.


I think you listed loma top, even if he is a good offensive fighter he isn't and can't be better than guys who knocked others out clean, namely the ones I mentioned.
Except Vasyl Lomachenko does have knockout power (when he decides to put all of his weight into his punches) and has knocked opponents out cleanly too. Does Rocky / Roman Martinez ring a bell?

It isn't his fault that his opponents quit and rob him of the opportunity to knock them out cleanly.

Vasyl Lomachenko's knockout record proves his punching power. He has stopped more previously unbeaten opponents in 11 bouts than any other boxer.

The fact that he doesn't throw every punch with maximum power doesn't mean he lacks knockout power. That's a big myth!

In your examples of boxers who should be ranked higher than Lomachenko in the offensive skills department where you used Anthony Joshua, Gennady Golovkin and Sergey Kovalev. In what way are any of them more skilled offensively than Lomachenko?

Golovkin struggled more to land his best punches on Canelo Alvarez than Lomachenko did to land his best punches on Rigondeaux. Even though Rigondeaux is statistically a better defensive boxer than Canelo Alvarez because he gets hit less. Ergo, Lomachenko > Gennady Golovkin.

Sergey Kovalev struggled more to land his best punches on Isaac Chillemba and went the distance. He also struggled more to land his best punches on Andre Ward. Whilst Lomachenko struggled less to land his best punches on Miguel Marriaga (who is at a similar level to Isaac Chillemba) and on Rigondeaux (who is slicker than Andre Ward and Chillemba). So again, Lomachenko > Sergey Kovalev.

Likewise, Joshua struggled more to land his punches on Carlos Takam than Lomachenko did to land his punches on Rigondeaux.

Lomachenko's offensive skills have been tested the most because he proved it against the best defensive boxer in boxing today.

Furthermore, Lomachenko statistically has the highest accuracy rate and punch connect rate than pretty much any boxer today.

you can't even complain he is a weak puncher since he is actually stopping his opponents with the punches he is landing most of the time. Just like how Joshua, Kovalev and GGG are. You'd have a point if Lomachenko had a KO percentage below 50% that his offensive skills are lower, even if he were to be landing more punches at a more frequent rate and at a higher percentage than others since his punches would have lesser effect, despite being in higher quantity. This isn't the case however!
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Old 12-25-2017, 09:42 AM #24
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Except Vasyl Lomachenko does have knockout power (when he decides to put all of his weight into his punches) and has knocked opponents out cleanly too. Does Rocky / Roman Martinez ring a bell?

It isn't his fault that his opponents quit and rob him of the opportunity to knock them out cleanly.

Vasyl Lomachenko's knockout record proves his punching power. He has stopped more previously unbeaten opponents in 11 bouts than any other boxer.

The fact that he doesn't throw every punch with maximum power doesn't mean he lacks knockout power. That's a big myth!

In your examples of boxers who should be ranked higher than Lomachenko in the offensive skills department where you used Anthony Joshua, Gennady Golovkin and Sergey Kovalev. In what way are any of them more skilled offensively than Lomachenko?

Golovkin struggled more to land his best punches on Canelo Alvarez than Lomachenko did to land his best punches on Rigondeaux. Even though Rigondeaux is statistically a better defensive boxer than Canelo Alvarez because he gets hit less. Ergo, Lomachenko > Gennady Golovkin.

Sergey Kovalev struggled more to land his best punches on Isaac Chillemba and went the distance. He also struggled more to land his best punches on Andre Ward. Whilst Lomachenko struggled less to land his best punches on Miguel Marriaga (who is at a similar level to Isaac Chillemba) and on Rigondeaux (who is slicker than Andre Ward and Chillemba). So again, Lomachenko > Sergey Kovalev.

Likewise, Joshua struggled more to land his punches on Carlos Takam than Lomachenko did to land his punches on Rigondeaux.

Lomachenko's offensive skills have been tested the most because he proved it against the best defensive boxer in boxing today.

Furthermore, Lomachenko statistically has the highest accuracy rate and punch connect rate than pretty much any boxer today.

you can't even complain he is a weak puncher since he is actually stopping his opponents with the punches he is landing most of the time. Just like how Joshua, Kovalev and GGG are. You'd have a point if Lomachenko had a KO percentage below 50% that his offensive skills are lower, even if he were to be landing more punches at a more frequent rate and at a higher percentage than others since his punches would have lesser effect, despite being in higher quantity. This isn't the case however!
Joshua had 2 weeks to prepare for a guy whos 6'1 /6'2 . Im not even sure he ever fought any ranked guy under 6'3 prior to that ? Or prepared at all punching downward against a opponent who likes to bend low and roll with punches . This is how Toney made Sam Peter look bad .

It would be difficult to go against any HW who is a counter puncher close distance fighter who has 100% stoppages and only one fight where he was equally matched to arguably the best offensive fighter in the last 20 years , Wlad Klitchko .

Last edited by juggernaut666; 12-25-2017 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 12-26-2017, 06:16 AM #25
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Joshua had 2 weeks to prepare for a guy whos 6'1 /6'2 . Im not even sure he ever fought any ranked guy under 6'3 prior to that ? Or prepared at all punching downward against a opponent who likes to bend low and roll with punches . This is how Toney made Sam Peter look bad .

It would be difficult to go against any HW who is a counter puncher close distance fighter who has 100% stoppages and only one fight where he was equally matched to arguably the best offensive fighter in the last 20 years , Wlad Klitchko .
Anthony Joshua did box against opponents that are 6 foot 3 or shorter. Kevin Johnson was one of them and so was Denis Bakhtov. However, he never boxed against anybody who was that short, but also had the defensive elusiveness / slickness to go with their short height as Carlos Takam did.

Joshua's bout against Takam should prepare Joshua for his potential showdown against his mandatory challenger Alexander Povetkin who is a more powerful puncher than Takam and is just as elusive with his head movement. It's a good job he fought Takam and got the experience because it'd allow him to do better against Povetkin. Joshua that night against Takam would've had immense difficulty if it wasPovetkin he was facing. That'd be a cracking and entertaining match up between the two.

Anthony Joshua is definitely one of the best offensive boxers for sure. However, I only rank Lomachenko ahead because of his better accuracy, timing and his ability to set up punches, even against the best defensive boxers.

Anthony Joshua and Alexander Povetkin are the best heavyweights in this particular skill department.
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Old 12-26-2017, 06:40 AM #26
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Anthony Joshua did box against opponents that are 6 foot 3 or shorter. Kevin Johnson was one of them and so was Denis Bakhtov. However, he never boxed against anybody who was that short, but also had the defensive elusiveness / slickness to go with their short height as Carlos Takam did.

Joshua's bout against Takam should prepare Joshua for his potential showdown against his mandatory challenger Alexander Povetkin who is a more powerful puncher than Takam and is just as elusive with his head movement. It's a good job he fought Takam and got the experience because it'd allow him to do better against Povetkin. Joshua that night against Takam would've had immense difficulty if it wasPovetkin he was facing. That'd be a cracking and entertaining match up between the two.



Joshua is definitely one of the best offensive boxers for sure. However, I only rank Lomachenko ahead because of his better accuracy, timing and his ability to set up punches, even against the best defensive boxers.

Anthony Joshua and Alexander Povetkin are the best heavyweights in this particular skill department.
Johnson is 6'3 so that is not under 6'3 .

Its still taller than the mark i was pin pointing .


The Takam fight will definitely benefit him if Joshua should fight Povetkin. I dont see Povetkin that hard to hit at all however . He stays stationary and has only one mode of footwork and thats come forward with little angles .

I dont believe Povetkin will have much chance at the improving Joshua by then and the size difference is just to much .



"Anthony Joshua and Alexander Povetkin are the best heavyweights in this particular skill department. "


This could be true but i think Joshua has better distance gauging when throwing or avoiding punches ,his defense is far overlooked and doesnt take many flush shots, Povetkin usually stays in the pocket and grinds you down , Joshua grinds you down where you still cant touch him .

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Old 12-26-2017, 07:12 AM #27
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Johnson is 6'3 so that is not under 6'3 .

Its still taller than the mark i was pin pointing .


The Takam fight will definitely benefit him if Joshua should fight Povetkin. I dont see Povetkin that hard to hit at all however . He stays stationary and has only one mode of footwork and thats come forward with little angles .

I dont believe Povetkin will have much chance at the improving Joshua by then and the size difference is just to much .



"Anthony Joshua and Alexander Povetkin are the best heavyweights in this particular skill department. "


This could be true but i think Joshua has better distance gauging when throwing or avoiding punches ,his defense is far overlooked and doesnt take many flush shots, Povetkin usually stays in the pocket and grinds you down , Joshua grinds you down where you still cant touch him .

Alexander Povetkin does have good head movement when he's at his best and is a decent aggressive counter puncher on the front foot. I don't think we've seen the best of him in his last 2 bouts because both those opponents came to only survive. He also uses decent angles when on the inside. I think he will save his best for the Joshua bout.

Yes, Joshua is the superior outside boxer but to me, Povetkin is undoubtedly the best inside boxer in the heavyweight division today. It'd be a very dangerous and risky tactic for Joshua to box on the inside against Povetkin. He's got a better chance at winning boxing from the outside or at mid range.

I still have the odds 50/50 for this match up if it takes place early next year. However, if it's in late 2018 or after 2018, then I'd make Joshua the favorite. Povetkin is only getting older and his high intensity style isn't suitable for an old boxer at their late 30's. Whilst Joshua as you rightly stated, is improving gradually.
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Old 12-26-2017, 08:16 AM #28
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Terence Crawford is a very precise puncher to the head and body. I've seen him stop guys with both attacks as well as fighting southpaw or orthodox. He has also hurt everyone I have seen him fight since Ricky Burns.
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Old 12-26-2017, 08:43 AM #29
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I think I'd put Terence Crawford, Chocolatito, Jorge Linares and Amir Khan on a purely offense list
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