64-67 Muhammad Ali vs 80's Tyson's Challengers

[OctoberRed]

"When Ali became fully developed physically at 6'3 210-212 pounds, he started to dominate. But he had already been fighting for 4 years. When he was weighing in the 190's, he was winning, but he wasn't beating the best of the best."................Really?
Who fights the "best of the best" in their first 2 years?

Ali fought under 199 for 2 years not 4 and in his third year he was fighting Jones, Cooper and Liston.

Ali is a superior boxer to anyone that Tyson faced in the 80's.
I think at his very best Douglas could put up a good fight against any heavy.

Ray

I really wish that Douglas vs. Jones Jr. fight would have happened.

[uncle ben]

"When Ali became fully developed physically at 6'3 210-212 pounds, he started to dominate. But he had already been fighting for 4 years. When he was weighing in the 190's, he was winning, but he wasn't beating the best of the best."................Really?
Who fights the "best of the best" in their first 2 years?

Ali fought under 199 for 2 years not 4 and in his third year he was fighting Jones, Cooper and Liston.

Ali is a superior boxer to anyone that Tyson faced in the 80's.
I think at his very best Douglas could put up a good fight against any heavy.

Ray

Louis for starters fought very tough comp. Tyson was fighting for the title a year and a half into his pro career. And I'm not knocking Ali, but he turned pro in 1960 and didn't really begin his domination until 1964. And I'm not implying he was ducking anyone, I think it was wise to bring him along the way he was. I wouldn't have expected Ali to be put up against say, Eddie Machen in 1961 or Zora Folley. I'm just pointing out that once he physically matured and had the size to go along with his skill level, that made him the dominant fighter of the era.

[uncle ben]

I really wish that Douglas vs. Jones Jr. fight would have happened.

Douglas was old and washed up by then, so even if Roy had won, I don't think it would tell us much.

[Ray Corso]

Ali turned pro in the end of the year (oct) fought twice then returned in 1961. With 20 bouts under him he took on Listen the Heavyweight Champ.
When Ali began he was not promoted by boxing insiders, he had a group that invested in him so even if they wanted him to move quicker they were not in a position to do that.
To fight for the title with 20 fights was rare then and now but it happens (Joshua)
Chris Dundee was brought in early and did most of the matchmaking along with his brother Angelo directing the training and the chief second in the corners.

Ali was perfectly moved and if I remember correctly never fought an opponent with a losing record. He fought a variety of opponents from 5'10" to 6'6", movers, pressure guys of couse no one that could punch just like every other heavy being moved prior to maturity.

Ali's improvement over his first 20 bouts was very obvious, he made huge strides.

Ray

[OctoberRed]

Douglas was old and washed up by then, so even if Roy had won, I don't think it would tell us much.

That's true, but RJJ was my fav after a prime Tyson growing up, so it would have been sweet revenge for me.

[HOUDINI563]

Smaller agile boxers give Ali the toughest time. The larger slower hwts would look as if they were fighting in slow motion vs prime Ali. One sided thrashings.

[HOUDINI563]

Ali took longer to fight for the title as there was just one title in 64. Tysons path was so much easier......multiple titles and a watered down talent pool. Really cannot compare a hwt winning the title when one title is available vs one in an era of many multiple titles. This is why calling a fighter a five time champion in modern times is such a joke.

[Anthony342]

Ali took longer to fight for the title as there was just one title in 64. Tysons path was so much easier......multiple titles and a watered down talent pool. Really cannot compare a hwt winning the title when one title is available vs one in an era of many multiple titles. This is why calling a fighter a five time champion in modern times is such a joke.

Yeah, that's why some people, like myself, prefer to only count lineal or undisputed title wins. To Tyson's credit, he did both, by beating all belt holders and then Spinks, who was lineal, so he was the guy at heavy. He was only a belt holder after that when he returned from prison. But he at least fought a unification fight, which is more than can be said about most fighters today, who are happy with just one trinket or two.

[HOUDINI563]

Yes. In actuality Tyson did not become the true champion until he beat Spinks. All other "title" wins were against contenders who won paper titles. Under similar conditions Louis as an example may have won a paper title by beating old Jack Sharkey or another contender prior to beating Braddock.

[Ray Corso]

"Ali took longer to fight for the title as there was just one title in 64"...................................sorry but NO!
Your counting calendar months and I'm counting fights on the calendar. Tyson fought 15 lame ducks weeks apart from one another, any solid prospect could have done that.

The WBC & WBA were the sanctioning bodies then.
It took Ali 20 bouts to fight for the title. Tyson had 27 prior to the title shot. Many of his opponents were brought in by a matchmaker that I worked for in the mid 70 into the mid 80's.
Ali also fought a legit champ who was a feared boxer at that time in boxing. I think Liston was an 8 to 1 favorite.
I don't think Berbick was the favorite in 1986.

Ray