Originally posted by LoadedWraps
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Can the status of a win change retroactively?
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Nothing takes place in a vacuum and fighters like all humans are not perfect. Some nights they show up others they do not. Frequently people make much too much out of one fight and even if a guy is on the slide they might pull it together for a night.
You have to look at all the evidence, and take it all into account to really judge. If someone is not doing that then they are blindly judging, evidence that pops up after or during a fight is just as meaningful as evidence before a fight.
Still a good win is always going to be a pretty good win, a good win is not going to go to trash and a trash win is not going to become good. Adjustments, not huge changes generally speaking of course.Last edited by The Gambler1981; 12-14-2016, 02:07 AM.
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Originally posted by LoadedWraps View PostNO.
And it isn't a debate. The value of a win is established at the time of the fight - who the opponent was at that moment; was he undefeated? Coming off of a loss? A win? How was he viewed by the media? Like a monster? Like hype? What was his reputation up until that moment? Those things matter when evaluating a fight performance.
Whether the opponent went on a torrid win streak, or spiraled into losses does not matter when judging a fighters resume. Anyone who tries to convince you otherwise is biased and should not be taken seriously.
Excellent points.
I can see merits in both sides - I just wanted to generate a discussion.
I think this is a great post, doe.
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Originally posted by LoadedWraps View PostNO.
And it isn't a debate. The value of a win is established at the time of the fight - who the opponent was at that moment; was he undefeated? Coming off of a loss? A win? How was he viewed by the media? Like a monster? Like hype? What was his reputation up until that moment? Those things matter when evaluating a fight performance.
Whether the opponent went on a torrid win streak, or spiraled into losses does not matter when judging a fighters resume. Anyone who tries to convince you otherwise is biased and should not be taken seriously.
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It kinda depends. Look at Tevin Farmer for example. I think his early four loses were bad management. This guy had limited amateur experience, started boxing in his late teens and they put him in there with Pedraza in his 12th pro fight.
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Originally posted by adrikitty View PostFor example, when Wilder beat Duhaupus, people weren't that impressed - typical Euro-bum, etc.
However, when Duhaupus proceeded to spark Helenius, it showed that while Duhaupus is still continental level, rather than world level, that he is not "just a journeyman," and that he's a legit top 15-20ish contender.
Anyway, that's just a crude example because it was still fresh on my mind from debating in the Wilder/Joshua HW lineal championship thread..... There are much better examples out there...
When at the time, a win may not look that impressive, but if that fighter goes on to beat other fighters who are highly ranked, etc., then should that win be held in higher regard? Or "it is what it is" at the time it happened?
AND, of course, should the same concept be applied in reverse? If at the time a win looks beast as hell, but that fighter goes on to lose his next tuneup fight, and the following 2 out of 3 fights, etc. Should that win then be downgraded?
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groves win over degale has likely been elevated since he became a champion and the collision course is set up nicely if both get through their next fights. similarly when some bloke knocked another one out in front of 80k at wembley (who was the again?) that if said knocked out bloke went on to win a rematch with degale to unify multiple titles, that only enhances froch's 'legacy'... speaking of which, Andre Ward beat that then more elevated guy, so does his win go through the roof? haha
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Originally posted by adrikitty View PostThat;s the entire point - is that despite beforehand, people claiming how good he is, and how he tried to avoid the fight, etc...
Then afterwards, he never gets a legitimate win again in his career...
So in hindsight, was that win really that impressive?
After a few rounds you could see his confidence going. It got to the point that every time he tried to throw it was him getting clocked with a counter punch. To me he became visibly gun-shy in that fight and never recovered.
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