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Old 06-12-2017, 10:17 AM #51
Weebler I Weebler I is offline
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Originally Posted by Sparked_26 View Post
The black and white is that Tories haven't lost the election but of course they have.
Forget black & white, see the blue?

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Old 06-12-2017, 10:41 AM #52
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I see the blue but the vote share says more to me and that was close.

Tories didn't win anything. They lost their majority.

I don't want to call out anyone for voting Tory because at local level people make their decisions on what benefits them which is the way it should work.

I make no bones about it - I am from London originally in a Labour heartland. I am more enthused about Corbyn's Labour than any party that have gone before it so I am more partisan than I've ever been. But I'd consider other parties if at a local level they had a great candidate.

For example I'd vote Vince Cable all day if I lived in his constituency.

On one hand If I'm honest, I think if Kensington in London has an electorate where the average house price costs 1.5 million quid votes in Labour there is a part of me that can't understand why someone in say somewhere Walsall with a house worth less than 10% of that value is a steadfast conservative. Because unfairly or not in my head all I see then is a little Englander whinging about immigration and whether Corbyn would revenge blow the arse out of some country if Britain was nuked.

But for balance on the other hand. I know grammar school teachers in the north of England who voted Conservative to safeguard their own jobs. I don't remember in grammar schools at home (London) because it's mainly a labour stronghold. But if someone is concerned about labour scrapping grammar schools their right because they will. Or if they have a small business has labour allayed their fears about having to pay a minimum wage of 10 an hour, and how raising corporation tax might effect them? There are reason I can appreciate.

But that said I loathe the Tories. They don't benefit me and mine in any way, shape, or form. And I am a placid man tbh.
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Old 06-12-2017, 10:53 AM #53
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He's basically a left centerist with a few socialistic policies. Any dumb fucks who actually think we're talking about a resurgence of European communism don't have the faintest clue what they're talking about. He's taken a platform which addresses the concerns of many of the UK population such as poverty, healthcare and education which I can't really see any feasible reason to object to (standards in all three areas seem to be failing) - you may of course believe that his methods are unrealistic and doomed to be unsuccessful, but from where I stand the guy deserves a chance to show if he can improve things for the British people. All we've seen for the last 20 -25 years is a steady rise in the costs of basic services and a slow decline in overall living standards and wages, along with a massive increase in poverty and growing inequality. You really think it's such a bad thing that people are starting to think it's time to try something a little different?

What would be your solution? 5 more years of 'belt tightening' and 'we're all in this together' when we clearly ain't. Some of us are getting kinda fed up with our taxes ending up in the pockets of private shareholders instead of being spent to improve the quality of life of us all. What would truly be mad - if you are one of the many who have been adversely affected under successive Tory and 'New' Labour governments - is voting for a party which is promising to do more of the same.

I don't know what it is man, it's like a Pavlovian response with some people (specially our cousins from the US)... you mention anything that seems to be of benefit to the poorer members of society and you immediately get described as a Communist. Bet there's people out there right now calling the minimum wage some kinda Trotskyite plot to overthrow the free world.
You get described as a communist because benefiting the poorer members of society almost always comes at the expense of the middle class and up. People want this utopian classless society without realizing that in said society everyone is reduced to the lowest common denominator. In USA, where the society is built on capitalistic classes, even our poor live a lot better than the so called middle classes of socialist states. In the free market competition hires and pays each according to their abilities and not to their needs. Capitalism is reaping what you sow.

What's going to happen is England will enact more and more socialist policies that will cripple the economy and standard of life, then the people will complain that they need a better life and England will double down on more socialist policies that originally tanked the economy. It's a common formula practiced virtually in all majority Democrat American cities that are holes today, like Detroit, Baltimore, Camden, etc... Chicago is next, the producers are moving out and the takers are moving in.
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Old 06-12-2017, 11:11 AM #54
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Originally Posted by Sparked_26 View Post
I see the blue but the vote share says more to me and that was close.

Tories didn't win anything. They lost their majority.

I don't want to call out anyone for voting Tory because at local level people make their decisions on what benefits them which is the way it should work.

I make no bones about it - I am from London originally in a Labour heartland. I am more enthused about Corbyn's Labour than any party that have gone before it so I am more partisan than I've ever been. But I'd consider other parties if at a local level they had a great candidate.

For example I'd vote Vince Cable all day if I lived in his constituency.

On one hand If I'm honest, I think if Kensington in London has an electorate where the average house price costs 1.5 million quid votes in Labour there is a part of me that can't understand why someone in say somewhere Walsall with a house worth less than 10% of that value is a steadfast conservative. Because unfairly or not in my head all I see then is a little Englander whinging about immigration and whether Corbyn would revenge blow the arse out of some country if Britain was nuked.

But for balance on the other hand. I know grammar school teachers in the north of England who voted Conservative to safeguard their own jobs. I don't remember in grammar schools at home (London) because it's mainly a labour stronghold. But if someone is concerned about labour scrapping grammar schools their right because they will. Or if they have a small business has labour allayed their fears about having to pay a minimum wage of 10 an hour, and how raising corporation tax might effect them? There are reason I can appreciate.

But that said I loathe the Tories. They don't benefit me and mine in any way, shape, or form. And I am a placid man tbh.
I'll say this much for them, Labour ran a positive campaign whereas May's campaign was like Project-Fear mark II.

Personally, I never wanted May as Prime Minister, the media forced her in because she voted Remain and they thought they could get Brexit reversed.

However, I'm not sure how one can get enthused by the thought of bungling Jeremy Corbyn as PM, racist Diane Abbott as Home Secretary and commie John McDonnell as Chancellor. Add in Emily Thornberry and it's a motley crue of absolute fukknuckles. I wouldn't trust them to look after a cat.

It's all right people wanting free stuff, but don't they realise the country is deep in debt? We can't afford more borrowing. You raise corporation tax, companies find better places to do business (such as the tax haven next door, Ireland), which would be disastrous at present economic climate with what's on the horizon.

The other thing is Brexit, as a nation we needed a strong hand negotiating with the EU in order to secure our long-term future. Now they're going to eff us in the ass knowing May will struggle to get things passed in a pro-Remain HoC & HoL.

Moreover, if you care about keeping the United Kingdom together then Corbyn's not your guy. He'd give Scotland a second referendum in a deal and in NI an inflammatory border poll. It's not just about financial considerations, there are deep ideological considerations too.

It wasn't a big Conservative majority to begin with, and if a DUP deal come off we're basically back where we started except with the PM damaged and the UK on the backfoot Brexit negotiations.

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Old 06-12-2017, 12:41 PM #55
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I'll say this much for them, Labour ran a positive campaign whereas May's campaign was like Project-Fear mark II.

Personally, I never wanted May as Prime Minister, the media forced her in because she voted Remain and they thought they could get Brexit reversed.

However, I'm not sure how one can get enthused by the thought of bungling Jeremy Corbyn as PM, racist Diane Abbott as Home Secretary and commie John McDonnell as Chancellor. Add in Emily Thornberry and it's a motley crue of absolute fukknuckles. I wouldn't trust them to look after a cat.

It's all right people wanting free stuff, but don't they realise the country is deep in debt? We can't afford more borrowing. You raise corporation tax, companies find better places to do business (such as the tax haven next door, Ireland), which would be disastrous at present economic climate with what's on the horizon.

The other thing is Brexit, as a nation we needed a strong hand negotiating with the EU in order to secure our long-term future. Now they're going to eff us in the ass knowing May will struggle to get things passed in a pro-Remain HoC & HoL.

Moreover, if you care about keeping the United Kingdom together then Corbyn's not your guy. He'd give Scotland a second referendum in a deal and in NI an inflammatory border poll. It's not just about financial considerations, there are deep ideological considerations too.

It wasn't a big Conservative majority to begin with, and if a DUP deal come off we're basically back where we started except with the PM damaged and the UK on the backfoot Brexit negotiations.
I want Scottish independence so Labour can win an election tbh.

Since 2005 the amount of seats labour and the lib dems have lost is frightening.

Labour won 7 seats at the last election ffs in region where vast swathes of Scotland traditionally voted labour.

I'm all for it. If there was a referendum for us in England to vote on their independence I'd vote for their independence. In a heartbeat!
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Old 06-12-2017, 12:53 PM #56
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He's like Bernie Sanders, but worse, because in Europe you guys are actually open to communism a lot more than America. This guy is horrible, please explain yourself.
He's not your part of the problem he's trying to fix this country without starting any war's..Bernie should have been your president.
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Old 06-12-2017, 12:55 PM #57
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The Americans elected Trump for crying out loud. The guy is a crook..
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Old 06-12-2017, 01:06 PM #58
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He's not your part of the problem he's trying to fix this country without starting any war's..Bernie should have been your president.
Yeah no thanks, Bernie is a buffoon who only communists, and pretentious millennials like.

It is no surprise that as a person gets older and wiser and accumulates a little bit of money and property then they all start voting Republican/Conservative.
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Old 06-12-2017, 01:56 PM #59
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Yeah no thanks, Bernie is a buffoon who only communists, and pretentious millennials like.

It is no surprise that as a person gets older and wiser and accumulates a little bit of money and property then they all start voting Republican/Conservative.
depends where you work too though I'd say.

If you work in public sector than you could live for a million years and never vote conservative. I am assuming it is the same over there.

I know you don't have a national health health service free at the point of use.

But who do your police and school teachers vote for?

Over here what this comedian says is essentially how the much of the working class feel about Tories. There is a feeling that it makes you somewhat of a cunt by definition.

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Old 06-12-2017, 02:15 PM #60
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You get described as a communist because benefiting the poorer members of society almost always comes at the expense of the middle class and up. People want this utopian classless society without realizing that in said society everyone is reduced to the lowest common denominator. In USA, where the society is built on capitalistic classes, even our poor live a lot better than the so called middle classes of socialist states. In the free market competition hires and pays each according to their abilities and not to their needs. Capitalism is reaping what you sow.

What's going to happen is England will enact more and more socialist policies that will cripple the economy and standard of life, then the people will complain that they need a better life and England will double down on more socialist policies that originally tanked the economy. It's a common formula practiced virtually in all majority Democrat American cities that are holes today, like Detroit, Baltimore, Camden, etc... Chicago is next, the producers are moving out and the takers are moving in.
I understand the philosophy, man...

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Hell, I could even make a strong case for it myself if I had to, however I see the long term problems being stored up by the increasing concentration of wealth in a few hands as outweighing the benefits. Economic growth is slowing, inequality is growing and we live in a world of finite resources. Use your imagination, man. Project these trends. What do you see?

Quite aside from which I ain't one of the 10% or economically even the top 50%, I get to see the effects of Conservative capitalism every day, and yeah, I am an idealist. The policies you're advocating did work up to a point. The whole of society did benefit, even if the rich benefited most. But that time is past.
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