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Old 05-20-2019, 04:03 PM #21
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Money will definitely help, but it wonít solve the problem.
Weíve pumped millions into low performing schools and it changes virtually nothing. A percentage point here and there, a few less kids dropping out, but the overall picture stays the same.

We manipulate data all the time to make the changes whatever superintendent in charge makes, and make him look good.
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Old 05-20-2019, 04:14 PM #22
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How do you fix the problem, then?


CC: siablo14
the problem with urban public schools in my opinion starts at home with irresponsible single mothers and deadbeat fathers not sticking around to raise their kids. there's no easy solution to a cultural problem especially if you aren't part of it. as far as policy goes, 1bad65 might be on to something about democrats. i think all this social welfare that democrats want to expand in America cultivates the lack of accountability and laziness among the demographics that vote for them. it's becoming a lucrative career being a single mother in America.
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Old 05-20-2019, 08:23 PM #23
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How do you fix the problem, then?


CC: siablo14
i have seen a few reports of billionaires like Gates Foundation and Zuckberg donate a lot of money for education causes and it didn't change a thing. Maybe a longer time period should be observed but so far what they have donated to, didn't cause any major changes.
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Old 05-20-2019, 08:47 PM #24
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Originally Posted by BostonGuy View Post
How do you fix the problem, then?


CC: siablo14
i read about another daycare after program that was being funded(i don't remember the state or whether i was public or private funding.) Lower income moms were able to leave their children their after school while they went to work.

The findings from the programme showed no better results in the children academic work but one of the great unexpected results was that the children left in these after-school programmes didn't no go on to be criminals and miscreants like previous generations before them.

The researchers realized that when the kids were left in these after-schools programmes,instead of being left at home alone and being free to roam their broken communities which would lead to them being badly influenced by miscreants in their communities, they were in a secure and guarded environment that shielded them from antisocial behaviour and they went on to be regular law-abiding folks later on in life instead of miscreants who go in and out of jail.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:19 AM #25
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Yet impoverished ESOL Asian kids who came here with just the clothes on their backs busted tail in school and got into elite universities.

We even have kids who were educated in 3rd World countries coming here to attend elite universities they qualified to attend.

Quit making excuses for failure.

Because until you do, you'll keep seeing the same failures.


One more thing, arent part of teachers jobs to teach kids how to perform well on standardized tests??

It was in my day. Has that changed and teachers no longer do that?
Cultural mindset. Change the cultural mindset of the community. School choice, more money, all of that will not work. Education starts at home.

Poor Asian kids are getting into the elite public High Schools in New York and the liberals are crying about it, calling for racial quotas and preferences to fix it. Hahahahahahaha!

Out here in California, since the elimination of racial quotas and preferences in 1996, the Asians make up a plurality in the UC school system, the liberals are crying foul again, saying the universities need more diversity! Bring back the quotas and preferences with also lowering academic standards!
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:37 AM #26
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The thing people forget is all these entrance exams and national tests have created ancillary businesses that favor wealthy kids.
This is true, but it doesn't stop at exams. Pointing to the exams is a bit of a red herring. The money that is spent on exam prep would roll over to after school tutoring if exams were eliminated.

Though for full disclosure, I do feel some attachment to the SHSAT as I passed it and went to one of the top NYC high schools. I wouldn't have gotten into anything worthwhile on my grades alone as I was not a disciplined student in middle school.

Quote:
School choice is great if there is real choice. But what parent is not going to choose the best school?
Yeah, I agree that just saying school choice is not enough to say you've presented a real solution to anything. NYC has had expanded school choice for a long time now and the relative performance of minority students on the SHSAT has gotten substantially worse in that time period. Both sides of the political spectrum have no valid explanation for why this change has happened IMO.

Quote:
Wealth also plays a key role in who gets accepted even when scores are equal.
This can be true as we've seen with the college admissions scandal, though perhaps does not really apply as much to NYC high schools.

But I think buying your way in to college can only explain so many seats, and I think that college admissions have effectively offset any such advantage through affirmative action.

In addition, it's worth considering what colleges would do if the proportion of low-income students attending shot up. It's likely that they can only offer financial aid to lower income students because there are students attending that can pay the sticker price.

Quote:
They need to find ways to attract the best and brightest, regardless of income and race. I saw that you wouldn't advocate for a race-based or income-based adjustment of test scores but you need something that offsets the advantages non minorities and the rich have in a school choice system.
I think a race-based adjustment of scores offers only short-term benefits. The long term goal should be to bridge the gap of the scores.

I understand the motivation to an income-based adjustment but I think it would be better to offer free/low-cost tutoring/test prep services instead. That would provide a way for the students to bridge the performance gap through their own efforts. This would cost more to do admittedly, but if Bernie is advocating spending more then that would be a good place to use it. And the earlier on in the kid's schooling the better.

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Originally Posted by Theodore View Post
Cultural mindset. Change the cultural mindset of the community. School choice, more money, all of that will not work. Education starts at home.

Poor Asian kids are getting into the elite public High Schools in New York and the liberals are crying about it, calling for racial quotas and preferences to fix it. Hahahahahahaha!

Out here in California, since the elimination of racial quotas and preferences in 1996, the Asians make up a plurality in the UC school system, the liberals are crying foul again, saying the universities need more diversity! Bring back the quotas and preferences with also lowering academic standards!
Meh, I feel like this demonstrates that you don't have much understanding of the situation in NY and are trying to apply a one size fits all mindset here.

Many more black and hispanic students got into the elite high schools in NY 20 years ago and the entrance exam hasn't changed since then. There is no reason to believe that they got lazier or that Asians got harder working in the last 20 years. There is more to be examined here. Pointing to cultural mindsets offers an incomplete explanation.

Last edited by BrometheusBob.; 05-21-2019 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:26 PM #27
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Cultural mindset. Change the cultural mindset of the community. School choice, more money, all of that will not work. Education starts at home.
School choice would work, as it would get the poor kids who have good parents and a work ethic a school conducive to learning.

That's something I noticed being bussed. Yes, us bussed in white kids had plenty of nonsense to deal with, but the ghetto kids who wanted to actually learn caught a bunch of flak themselves as well.

You are right, that's the culture there. It's insane seeing whole communities looking at being educated as a bad thing.

So get the good kids out of that toxic environment and give them a shot at a good education.

Let the kids who dont care about learning stay at the failing schools and wallow on their ignorance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodore View Post
Out here in California, since the elimination of racial quotas and preferences in 1996, the Asians make up a plurality in the UC school system, the liberals are crying foul again, saying the universities need more diversity! Bring back the quotas and preferences with also lowering academic standards!
I've seen that firsthand.

Between work and family I go out to California quite a bit.

Once I ate lunch at a burger joint on the UC Irvine campus.

I was stunned to notice well over 50% of the college kids there were Asian.


But liberals cant have the cream rise to the top, as that won't get the votes of life's losers.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:32 PM #28
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Originally Posted by BrometheusBob. View Post
This is true, but it doesn't stop at exams. Pointing to the exams is a bit of a red herring. The money that is spent on exam prep would roll over to after school tutoring if exams were eliminated.

Though for full disclosure, I do feel some attachment to the SHSAT as I passed it and went to one of the top NYC high schools. I wouldn't have gotten into anything worthwhile on my grades alone as I was not a disciplined student in middle school.


Yeah, I agree that just saying school choice is not enough to say you've presented a real solution to anything. NYC has had expanded school choice for a long time now and the relative performance of minority students on the SHSAT has gotten substantially worse in that time period. Both sides of the political spectrum have no valid explanation for why this change has happened IMO.


This can be true as we've seen with the college admissions scandal, though perhaps does not really apply as much to NYC high schools.

But I think buying your way in to college can only explain so many seats, and I think that college admissions have effectively offset any such advantage through affirmative action.

In addition, it's worth considering what colleges would do if the proportion of low-income students attending shot up. It's likely that they can only offer financial aid to lower income students because there are students attending that can pay the sticker price.



I think a race-based adjustment of scores offers only short-term benefits. The long term goal should be to bridge the gap of the scores.

I understand the motivation to an income-based adjustment but I think it would be better to offer free/low-cost tutoring/test prep services instead. That would provide a way for the students to bridge the performance gap through their own efforts. This would cost more to do admittedly, but if Bernie is advocating spending more then that would be a good place to use it. And the earlier on in the kid's schooling the better.



Meh, I feel like this demonstrates that you don't have much understanding of the situation in NY and are trying to apply a one size fits all mindset here.

Many more black and hispanic students got into the elite high schools in NY 20 years ago and the entrance exam hasn't changed since then. There is no reason to believe that they got lazier or that Asians got harder working in the last 20 years. There is more to be examined here. Pointing to cultural mindsets offers an incomplete explanation.
I think the exams are a major issue. Not that they are unfair, but that exam prep has become a significant for profit business since school revenues have to be used elsewhere. As it has become more costly, that means poor and middle class kids, most often minorities, can't afford them.

As for Asian kids, the article points out how test taking is a major part of their culture for the youth. Their success on the test taking shouldn't be criticized nor should the tests be eliminated. I just think the optics are alarming if a school in NYC only has such a small number of black and hispanic students. Clearly there is something historically systemic that has created this.

I agree that any race based adjustment is short term and is problematic.

There absolutely needs to be income adjustments for all of these schools. You lose perspective if you are not in schools with people from different socieeconomic strata.
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Old 05-21-2019, 01:05 PM #29
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Originally Posted by John Barron View Post
. there's no easy solution to a cultural problem especially if you aren't part of it. as far as policy goes, 1bad65 might be on to something about democrats. i think all this social welfare that democrats want to expand in America cultivates the lack of accountability and laziness among the demographics that vote for them. it's becoming a lucrative career being a single mother in America.
There is a solution, it's just many label the solution racist.

Black men need an education that is centric to our life experiences as black men.

I may not agree with the Nation of Islam religiously, but I've watched the NOI come into the poorest black neighborhoods and lower gun violence all the while increasing the education of the community.

Isn't that what you and your ilk claim you want and should happen? You know, black men taking responsibility for themselves and communities... Well the NOI provides that, but somehow gets criminalized all the while never committing any violent or criminal acts
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I'm not a member of the NOI, but if the NOI is going to reform the millions of black men locked in prisons across America and turn them into honest, productive, tax paying citizens, what's the problem?

Malcolm X was once a drug addict who participated in criminal activity. The NOI helped him do a complete 180 by giving him a sense of self, history and value.

The Nation of Islam decreases community violence, increases education and decreases recidivism rates which is what many of you that hate blacks are constantly crying about. So why are they criminalized so much and not allowed to do the hard work in their community?

An analogy is some of you are like cops that are in the process of arresting someone and placing their 250 lb frame on the suspects back all the while screaming at them to get up.

Well, which is it?

Last edited by Chollo Vista; 05-21-2019 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 05-21-2019, 03:21 PM #30
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