How Does Duran Stack Up All Time?

[Johnny Steele]

I didn't know Benny Leonard had a glass jaw and I still don't. Five times does seem like a lot for an ATG to be kayoed, but Leonard was seen and judged by better boxing experts than myself and he has been appraised very highly for a long time.

We all know a mover is what Duran had the most trouble with, and Leonard was a Tunney style mover with fast legs. He will have to come in to punch, though, but he could do that swiftly a la Tunney, and be gone. There will not be much of a height differential. This fight could proceed something like Lomachenco vs Mikey Garcia might. Leonard was a world better than the Viruet brothers, but not nearly as tall. I would probably expect this fight to go to a decision. My crystal ball does not have a winner yet.

P.S. I just saw that Leonard was only 5'5", two inches shorter than Duran. Duran will be the larger man. It is hard to see him losing to Leonard, just off that statistic alone. I plan to watch all the Lewonard film available and see if my crystal ball can come up with an answer.

As of now, if I had to bet, I would have to bet on Duran as the larger man. But that would be without enough information.

Seriously though Is there any more footage of this guy?

Everybody talks about this guy like they've seen thirty five fights of his or something.

[Johnny Steele]

Find it your self kid! Do some research

It's funny that you say that you arrogant old fool.
This conversation about the chinless wonder has led me to uncover
some startling facts.

At least one opponent took a dive against him. One Pal Silvers

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php?title=Fight:19539

Which makes you wonder. How many of his other fights were fixed?
Was he really as good as they say, if he needed fighters to take dives?

In another fight he cheated by refusing to weigh in (this giving him an advantage) And also resorted to Hitting the opponent who was already down. Pinky Mitchell was his name.

Seems like your idol was a real piece of ****.

[The Old LefHook]

The fighters themselvs generally have nothing to do with it when the fix is in, unless they are the one taking the dive. Gangster gamblers were responsible most of the time.

[Johnny Steele]

The fighters themselvs generally have nothing to do with it when the fix is in, unless they are the one taking the dive. Gangster gamblers were responsible most of the time.

What do you make of his fight with Lockport Jimmy Duffy on 1919-11-17? Dive or not?

Also his fight with Jack Britton on 1922-06-26 seems all kinds of wrong.
Seems as though he likes punching downed opponents.

Benny was the Terry Norris of his day.




Edit: His 1932 fight with joe trippe also seems fixed.

[HandsofIron]

Duran is the GOAT/TBE.

[Mugwump]

After all these years I really am weary of this "Sugar Ray beat himself" excuse for the first Duran fight.

Look, I'm sure he probably did get caught up with the hype and strayed from the tactics he and his corner had worked upon in the lead-up to the bout. But as the old military axiom goes, "No plan survives first encounter with the enemy".

I'm positive if we asked Duran's corner they too would admit Roberto failed to tick all the boxes in terms of what they were trying to achieve tactically.

That's the point about boxing - when plans go out of the window the best man finds a way to win. And Duran was that man.

I just don't understand this completely schizophrenic excuse-making. I mean, for a guy who supposedly beat himself Leonard still managed to deliver one of the finest performances of a generation.

I lost count of the number of times he doubled-down on Duran's chin just when it looked like he was about to slip out of the judges's scorecards completely - only for Duran to summon up fresh reserves of energy and raise the ante ... again and again and again.

Sure - tactics played a role. But Duran won the fight because he wanted it more and was prepared to go to lengths which ultimately Sugar Ray couldn't. One could say he beat him at an existential level and it's the best evidence I can point to which suggests that all things being equal with both fighters nothing less than fully committed - Duran would *ALWAYS* beat Leonard.

But again ... this is not a criticism of Leonard. Rather it is a statement of how good Duran truly was. I'm sure there will be many who think I'm making excuses for Duran's sub-par performances against Leonard thereafter.

Maybe I am. I don't know. All I can say is that my instincts tell me Duran's professionalism was his weak spot and this is what ultimately cost him dearly later in his career. Leonard was certainly ahead of him in this department.

[StarshipTrooper]

After all these years I really am weary of this "Sugar Ray beat himself" excuse for the first Duran fight.

Look, I'm sure he probably did get caught up with the hype and strayed from the tactics he and his corner had worked upon in the lead-up to the bout. But as the old military axiom goes, "No plan survives first encounter with the enemy".

I'm positive if we asked Duran's corner they too would admit Roberto failed to tick all the boxes in terms of what they were trying to achieve tactically.

That's the point about boxing - when plans go out of the window the best man finds a way to win. And Duran was that man.

I just don't understand this completely schizophrenic excuse-making. I mean, for a guy who supposedly beat himself Leonard still managed to deliver one of the finest performances of a generation.

I lost count of the number of times he doubled-down on Duran's chin just when it looked like he was about to slip out of the judges's scorecards completely - only for Duran to summon up fresh reserves of energy and raise the ante ... again and again and again.

Sure - tactics played a role. But Duran won the fight because he wanted it more and was prepared to go to lengths which ultimately Sugar Ray couldn't. One could say he beat him at an existential level and it's the best evidence I can point to which suggests that all things being equal with both fighters nothing less than fully committed - Duran would *ALWAYS* beat Leonard.

But again ... this is not a criticism of Leonard. Rather it is a statement of how good Duran truly was. I'm sure there will be many who think I'm making excuses for Duran's sub-par performances against Leonard thereafter.

Maybe I am. I don't know. All I can say is that my instincts tell me Duran's professionalism was his weak spot and this is what ultimately cost him dearly later in his career. Leonard was certainly ahead of him in this department.

The thing you always hear is Leonard "didn't fight his fight". That's bull. He DID fight his fight and I can only surmise those suggesting otherwise haven't watched any of Leonard's fights pre-Duran. He fought the first Duran fight the way he fought all his opponents up to that point in his career. Pre-Duran Leonard was a boxer-puncher, NOT an on-his-bicycle stick-and-move type of fighter. Too many myths have cropped up over the years and few if any of them have any connection to reality.

[The Old LefHook]

A fine post, Muggy, which I happen to agree with.

[ShoulderRoll]

"In that first fight with Roberto Duran, my kid was ready to fight him like he fought him in the second fight. That's the way we were planning to fight him, but Duran abused him when we were walking the streets of Montreal.

Me, my wife Helen, and Ray and his wife--we were walking the streets and Duran came up and he told Ray's wife that he was going to beat the hell out of her husband and then come after her next. Ray wanted to street-fight the guy right there."

--Angelo Dundee

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Benny Leonard had a glass chin.
Duran puts his a55 to sleep.

Oh no. Another guy who glances at the boxrec record but doesn't take the time to notice that Leonard had 219 fights losing only 22, 5 by knockout 4 of which were in his first 20 fights where he was 15 and 16 years old...

You sure are a student of the game.