Johnson, McVea, Wills, Jeannette...were they really all that great?

[Ben Bolt]

Fleischer was very close to that era. Closer than anyone today that's for sure. His comments concerning Jeffries and the four great black hwts and that Johnson was the leader of that pack by leaps and bounds should be taken quite seriously.

A bit of googling and finding this quote by a chairman of Minnesota State Athletic Commission, George Barton (1885-1969):

“Old-timers like Fleischer and I know how great he [Johnson] was. He was often obliged to permit opponents, particularly white men, to go the limit or make good showings in order to get fights."

[OctoberRed]

A bit of googling and finding this quote by a chairman of Minnesota State Athletic Commission, George Barton (1885-1969):

“Old-timers like Fleischer and I know how great he [Johnson] was. He was often obliged to permit opponents, particularly white men, to go the limit or make good showings in order to get fights."

Wow, that's quite a find. Arum still outlived that guy, which is crazy.

[GhostofDempsey]

A bit of googling and finding this quote by a chairman of Minnesota State Athletic Commission, George Barton (1885-1969):

“Old-timers like Fleischer and I know how great he [Johnson] was. He was often obliged to permit opponents, particularly white men, to go the limit or make good showings in order to get fights."

Yes, but it's easier to carry mich smaller, overmatched opponents who never had a chance to begin with.

[QueensburyRules]

IDK - Jeffries wouldn't have been under any real pressure to fight these men. Can't see Jeffries quitting for that reason.

I disagree with Fleischer, Jeffries would never have faced the pressures Dempsey did. I think Fleischer imposed his own contemporaneous values and experiences (circa 1920s) onto Jeffries era.

Harry Wills (almost) benefited a generation later from a prevailing temperament, The Harlem Renaissance. Wills' support was all New York based, and as short lived as the Renaissance.

In Jeffries era Johnson, McVey, Langford and Jeanette would never had a voice powerful enough to force James J. Jeffries into a fight.

Any cry of ducking would have been buried in an avalanche of 'color line.'

- -Yet Nat rated Jeff very high in his greatest heavywts, just below JJ.

And he saw the entirety of Joe Louis that beggars the obvious protective friendship with JJ polluted his musings.

[Dr. Z]

Exactly. Wlad was always very hard to watch for me. Stiff, slow, chinny, and that jab and clinch style that I am not a fan of.

I have to disagree here. Wlad slow? He had very good hand speed, and could move around the ring quite well. Wlad was one of the better athletes to win the title.

Glad also had an all time jab, a laser like right hand and a hook, that was even more dangerous that his right hand. He's literally heads and shoulders about these fighters from the 1900-1920. Did he hold some, yeah, so did Ali. Actually Ali held more. And Johnson held even more than Ali.

Regarding the question of the thread, we do have some film to judge. I think it's safe to say that Johnson, McVey, Wills, and Jeannette were among the greats of their time. While they won some and lost some, if you take out compare them to the field and not each other, they stand out. That's what made them great.

A pity they never got a title shot bedside Johnson, and shutting out the best African Americans's for title shots was his fault outside of Wills who was younger by the time Willard won the title.

[Dr. Z]

- -Yet Nat rated Jeff very high in his greatest heavywts, just below JJ.

And he saw the entirety of Joe Louis that beggars the obvious protective friendship with JJ polluted his musings.

Fleischer said Jeffries beat the best competion.

Louis placement by Fleischer is very interesting. Understand that Louis was a hero to the American Jewish community ( Nat was Jewish ) for beating Schmeling. That's perfectly understandable.

In fact what Louis fought Abe Simon, many Jewish Americans were going for Louis to win which is amazing when you think about it as Abe Simon was Jewish.

Fleischer put Louis at #6. At the time when most have forgotten about Corbett, Fitz, and Jeffries as title film and first hand testimonials didn't made its way to the 1960's ) and like I said, there is no way Nat wasn't a fan of Louis based on the happening of history.

Below are Nat's final rating in 1972, which I mostly disagree with. But he saw em' and had access to films, first hand stories via interview and stuff I can only dream of. Nat was very chummy with Johnson by the way.

Heavyweights:

1 - Jack Johnson
2 - James J. Jeffries
3 - Bob Fitzsimmons
4 - Jack Dempsey
5 - James J. Corbett
6 - Joe Louis
7 - Sam Langford
8 - Gene Tunney
9 - Max Schmeling
10- Rocky Marciano

[GhostofDempsey]

I have to disagree here. Wlad slow? He had very good hand speed, and could move around the ring quite well. Wlad was one of the better athletes to win the title.

Glad also had an all time jab, a laser like right hand and a hook, that was even more dangerous that his right hand. He's literally heads and shoulders about these fighters from the 1900-1920. Did he hold some, yeah, so did Ali. Actually Ali held more. And Johnson held even more than Ali.

Regarding the question of the thread, we do have some film to judge. I think it's safe to say that Johnson, McVey, Wills, and Jeannette were among the greats of their time. While they won some and lost some, if you take out compare them to the field and not each other, they stand out. That's what made them great.

A pity they never got a title shot bedside Johnson, and shutting out the best African Americans's for title shots was his fault outside of Wills who was younger by the time Willard won the title.

Wlad under Manny Stewart learned how to fight behind his jab, maybe a little too much. The latter part of his career a was a lot of jab and grab. If you watch film on Primo Carnera, you'll see a lot of similarities in their style.

[billeau2]

Wlad under Manny Stewart learned how to fight behind his jab, maybe a little too much. The latter part of his career a was a lot of jab and grab. If you watch film on Primo Carnera, you'll see a lot of similarities in their style.

what? Stewart's transformation of Vlad was the epicenter of the new evolved style of boxing first popularized by John Ruiz. Boxing is reduced to its most functional aspects, a jab and a grab, what else is needed?

When we see those primitives, doing things like setting distance, parrying, setting traps, we have to just say "how cute." The Ammy style of boxing around since the late eighteen hundreds was pioneered by Britian. Even then trainers were remarking on how simple, and primitive the framework was. Yet this is the style we see today... and unless fighters fight professionally at a relatively young age, or go to an excellent trainer of sorts, we see very limited skills in the ring.

Fighters used to be "fighters" and not athletes. Today we have athletes that box. Its just like today we have hot women that fight MMA... it is kind of a dilution of talent... The older guys look primitive because they are doing things we are not used to seeing.

[QueensburyRules]

what? Stewart's transformation of Vlad was the epicenter of the new evolved style of boxing first popularized by John Ruiz. Boxing is reduced to its most functional aspects, a jab and a grab, what else is needed?

When we see those primitives, doing things like setting distance, parrying, setting traps, we have to just say "how cute." The Ammy style of boxing around since the late eighteen hundreds was pioneered by Britian. Even then trainers were remarking on how simple, and primitive the framework was. Yet this is the style we see today... and unless fighters fight professionally at a relatively young age, or go to an excellent trainer of sorts, we see very limited skills in the ring.

Fighters used to be "fighters" and not athletes. Today we have athletes that box. Its just like today we have hot women that fight MMA... it is kind of a dilution of talent... The older guys look primitive because they are doing things we are not used to seeing.

- -Wlad hardly limited to jab and grab any more than U limited to Ginsberg, Kerouac and Tiny Tim.

Unlike Wlad though, U got no KO offense. Enter Boy George on U ledger.

Yup!

[billeau2]

- -Wlad hardly limited to jab and grab any more than U limited to Ginsberg, Kerouac and Tiny Tim.

Unlike Wlad though, U got no KO offense. Enter Boy George on U ledger.

Yup!

? Engrish pwrease!