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Old 08-14-2019, 07:36 PM #1
GhostofDempsey GhostofDempsey is offline
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Default The Top 20 All-Time Greatest P4P List

This is my top 20 list, which will remain fluid, that way adjustments can be made over time.

1- Ray Robinson

2- Willie Pep

3- Archie Moore

4- Ezzard Charles

5- Harry Greb

6- Roberto Duran

7- Henry Armstrong

8- Barney Ross

9- Benny Leonard

10- Sam Langford

11- Mickey Walker

12- Manny Pacquiao

13- Tiger Flowers

14- Jake LaMotta

15- Jack Dempsey

16- Ray Leonard

17- Emile Griffith

18- Gene Tunney

19- Roy Jones Jr

20- Ike Williams

Plenty of honorable mentions who can easily be rotated on or off the list. In no particular order:

Jose Napoles
Pernell Whitaker
Julio Cesar Chavez Sr
Michael Spinks
Joe Louis
Jimmy McLarnin
Joe Gans
Charley Burley
Sandy Saddler
Holman Williams
Tony Canzoneri

Post up your lists!
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Old 08-14-2019, 08:50 PM #2
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These lists are tough. Ray Leonard is too low, in my view. Langford, Walker and Greb are way too high.

And I always wonder why Moore should be ranked over a guy that beat him three times. But people continue to do this.

Robinson at #1 is pretty much a given. After that, nobody agrees on much!
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Old 08-14-2019, 09:30 PM #3
GhostofDempsey GhostofDempsey is offline
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Originally Posted by Joe Beamish View Post
These lists are tough. Ray Leonard is too low, in my view. Langford, Walker and Greb are way too high.

And I always wonder why Moore should be ranked over a guy that beat him three times. But people continue to do this.

Robinson at #1 is pretty much a given. After that, nobody agrees on much!
Lists are always going to be subjective and up for debate. To shed some light on my selection, I place Moore above Charles because Moore was more durable, had 100 more fights than Charles, and was a more nuanced fighter. Not by a wide margin, but I felt he could make adjustments during a fight just a tad better.

Leonard’s career was a bit too short, and I felt he had a couple of gift decisions during his career because of his star appeal.

Walker was competitive from 147 all the way to HW. Same as Langford. Sam was a natural middleweight fighting much larger men. Defeated some of the best names of his era from middleweight to heavyweight.

Greb also fought all comers. From 160 - 175+. Only man to beat Tunney (on record, outside of the long count fight) and one of two who fought him to a draw. This while blind in one eye.
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Old 08-14-2019, 09:30 PM #4
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MY personal top 20 with honorable mentions:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb (he has the best resume I just can’t quite put him #1 due to no film which shouldn’t be right but oh well)
3. Sam Langford
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Roberto Duran
7. Benny Leonard
8. Willie Pep
9. Eder Jofre
10. Joe Gans
11. Mickey Walker
12. Muhammad Ali
13. Joe Louis
14. Gene Tunney
15. Archie Moore
16. Sugar Ray Leonard
17. Barney Ross
18. Tony Canzoneri
19. Jimmy Wilde
20. Bob Fitzsimmons

Honorable: Sandy Saddler, Packey McFarland, Charley Burley, Ike Williams, Holman Williams, Terry McGovern, Pernell Whitaker, Carlos Monzon, Jose Napoles, Carlos Ortiz, Emile Griffith, Marvin Hagler, Luis Rodriguez, Roy Jones, George Dixon, Billy Conn, Evander Holyfield, Thomas Hearns, Manny Pacquaio, Julio Cesar Chavez
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Old 08-14-2019, 09:32 PM #5
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Originally Posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
Lists are always going to be subjective and up for debate. To shed some light on my selection, I place Moore above Charles because Moore was more durable, had 100 more fights than Charles, and was a more nuanced fighter. Not by a wide margin, but I felt he could make adjustments during a fight just a tad better.

Leonard’s career was a bit too short, and I felt he had a couple of gift decisions during his career because of his star appeal.

Walker was competitive from 147 all the way to HW. Same as Langford. Sam was a natural middleweight fighting much larger men. Defeated some of the best names of his era from middleweight to heavyweight.

Greb also fought all comers. From 160 - 175+. Only man to beat Tunney (on record, outside of the long count fight) and one of two who fought him to a draw. This while blind in one eye.
Greb also won a newspaper decision over Tunney and one of the “losses” was considered a total ripoff. Greb had Tunney’s number despite being significantly smaller, older and with a lot more mileage.
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:26 PM #6
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Originally Posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
This is my top 20 list, which will remain fluid, that way adjustments can be made over time.

1- Ray Robinson

2- Willie Pep

3- Archie Moore

4- Ezzard Charles

5- Harry Greb

6- Roberto Duran

7- Henry Armstrong

8- Barney Ross

9- Benny Leonard

10- Sam Langford

11- Mickey Walker

12- Manny Pacquiao

13- Tiger Flowers

14- Jake LaMotta

15- Jack Dempsey

16- Ray Leonard

17- Emile Griffith

18- Gene Tunney

19- Roy Jones Jr

20- Ike Williams

Plenty of honorable mentions who can easily be rotated on or off the list. In no particular order:

Jose Napoles
Pernell Whitaker
Julio Cesar Chavez Sr
Michael Spinks
Joe Louis
Jimmy McLarnin
Joe Gans
Charley Burley
Sandy Saddler
Holman Williams
Tony Canzoneri

Post up your lists!
Decent list I definitely think Ali deserves to 5 or at least honorable mention and Jack Johnson deserves it as well he help revolutionized boxing more than anyone.

Rate my list and let me know what you think mine is forever changing as well and I put lots of thought in this for years.

My List is going to be a top 50!
1 Ray Robinson
2 Muhammad Ali
3 Floyd Mayweather
4 Henry Armstrong
5 Willie Pep
6 Jack Johnson
7 Roberto Duran
8 Harry Greb
9 Sugar Ray Leonard
10 Sam Langford
11 Benny Leonard
12 Ezzard Charles
13 Archie Moore
14 Gene Tunney
15 Marvin Hagler
16 Manny Pacquiao
17 Roy Jones
18 Barney Ross
19 Julio Caesar Chavez
20 Carlos Monzon
21 Jimmy Wilde
22 Jimmy Mclarnin
23 Joe Gans
24 Lennox Lewis
25 George Foreman
26 Jack Dempsey
27 Thomas Hearns
28 Sandy Saddler
29 Pernell Whitaker
30 Benard Hopkins
31 Eder Jofre
32 Tony Cazoneri
33 Bob Fittszmens
34 Evander Holyfield
35 Joe Fraizer
36 Jose Napoles
37 Kid Gavilan
38 Mickey Walker
39 Billy Conn
40 Stanley Ketchel
41 Mike Tyson
42 Alexus Arquello
43 Salvador Sanchez
44 Andre Ward
45 Juan Manuel Marquez
46 Emile Griffith
47 Eric Morrales/ Marco Antonio Barrera ( couldn't choose lol)
48 Rocky Marciano
49 George Dixxon
50 Charley Burley
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:36 PM #7
GhostofDempsey GhostofDempsey is offline
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Decent list I definitely think Ali deserves to 5 or at least honorable mention and Jack Johnson deserves it as well he help revolutionized boxing more than anyone.

Rate my list and let me know what you think mine is forever changing as well and I put lots of thought in this for years.

My List is going to be a top 50!
1 Ray Robinson
2 Muhammad Ali
3 Floyd Mayweather
4 Henry Armstrong
5 Willie Pep
6 Jack Johnson
7 Roberto Duran
8 Harry Greb
9 Sugar Ray Leonard
10 Sam Langford
11 Benny Leonard
12 Ezzard Charles
13 Archie Moore
14 Gene Tunney
15 Marvin Hagler
16 Manny Pacquiao
17 Roy Jones
18 Barney Ross
19 Julio Caesar Chavez
20 Carlos Monzon
21 Jimmy Wilde
22 Jimmy Mclarnin
23 Joe Gans
24 Lennox Lewis
25 George Foreman
26 Jack Dempsey
27 Thomas Hearns
28 Sandy Saddler
29 Pernell Whitaker
30 Benard Hopkins
31 Eder Jofre
32 Tony Cazoneri
33 Bob Fittszmens
34 Evander Holyfield
35 Joe Fraizer
36 Jose Napoles
37 Kid Gavilan
38 Mickey Walker
39 Billy Conn
40 Stanley Ketchel
41 Mike Tyson
42 Alexus Arquello
43 Salvador Sanchez
44 Andre Ward
45 Juan Manuel Marquez
46 Emile Griffith
47 Eric Morrales/ Marco Antonio Barrera ( couldn't choose lol)
48 Rocky Marciano
49 George Dixxon
50 Charley Burley
Solid list. Can’t argue with most of those names. The reason I don’t rate Ali or Johnson on a P4P basis, is because I don’t think their success would carry over onto other weigh classes. Ali did too many things wrong from a technical perspective—hands at his sides, leaning back from punches, rope a dope, no body attack, etc., which works against slow heavyweights and smaller opponents but not when all things are equal in lower divisions. Same with Johnson. The key to much of his success was his distinct size advantage over most of his opponents.
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:51 PM #8
GhostofDempsey GhostofDempsey is offline
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Originally Posted by chrisJS View Post
Greb also won a newspaper decision over Tunney and one of the “losses” was considered a total ripoff. Greb had Tunney’s number despite being significantly smaller, older and with a lot more mileage.
Yes, and after that robbery against Tunney, he went on to fight Tommy Loughran just two weeks later.
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Old 08-15-2019, 04:02 PM #9
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Nice work.

Stickied.
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Old 08-17-2019, 11:27 AM #10
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Originally Posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
This is my top 20 list, which will remain fluid, that way adjustments can be made over time.

1- Ray Robinson

2- Willie Pep

3- Archie Moore

4- Ezzard Charles

5- Harry Greb

6- Roberto Duran

7- Henry Armstrong

8- Barney Ross

9- Benny Leonard

10- Sam Langford

11- Mickey Walker

12- Manny Pacquiao

13- Tiger Flowers

14- Jake LaMotta

15- Jack Dempsey

16- Ray Leonard

17- Emile Griffith

18- Gene Tunney

19- Roy Jones Jr

20- Ike Williams

Plenty of honorable mentions who can easily be rotated on or off the list. In no particular order:

Jose Napoles
Pernell Whitaker
Julio Cesar Chavez Sr
Michael Spinks
Joe Louis
Jimmy McLarnin
Joe Gans
Charley Burley
Sandy Saddler
Holman Williams
Tony Canzoneri

Post up your lists!
I like your posts, generally, and respect what you have done here, specifically. But do you mind explaining your rationale? What are your criteria?

I just don't get how on a P4P list, a guy who built his career fighting smaller men (and failed miserably when he attempted to take on even the gentlest of bigger men) can top the list.

Not that he's not a great fighter, but we have seen better, and have fighters with better records.

Also, Moore and Charles aren't even the best fighters ever at their best weight, but get top 5 slots, while the clearly superior Conn gets NO mention.

Pacquiao (and his PEDs, which deserve equal mention) - but no Lomachenko? I would love to see the footage of any fighter who looks as good as Loma.

And LaMotta and Flowers? Are they even top 15 Middleweights?

It's a great list. Better than anything i could do. If you don't wanna explain it, I understand. I am just curious.
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