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Old 01-11-2019, 10:57 AM #91
DreamFighter DreamFighter is offline
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hagler gave away too many rounds early on, perhaps doing his southpaw trick which didnt faze Leonard at all. He was building up towards the end but by then SRL's showboating and early activity had him just ahead.
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:05 PM #92
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Originally Posted by DreamFighter View Post
hagler gave away too many rounds early on, perhaps doing his southpaw trick which didnt faze Leonard at all. He was building up towards the end but by then SRL's showboating and early activity had him just ahead.
This is the standard story that we always hear. I've heard it a million times for decades. Billions of times. It's like the pledge of allegiance. Four-year olds know it.

Hagler blew the early rounds, did better midway, but not enough to win the fight even though much of Leonard's activity was ineffectual showboating and plain running.

It's true enough, I guess, so I wonder why people continue to ask this question or make this thread.

It would be neat to hear a fresh perspective if there is one.
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:24 PM #93
DreamFighter DreamFighter is offline
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Originally Posted by Joe Beamish View Post
This is the standard story that we always hear. I've heard it a million times for decades. Billions of times. It's like the pledge of allegiance. Four-year olds know it.

Hagler blew the early rounds, did better midway, but not enough to win the fight even though much of Leonard's activity was ineffectual showboating and plain running.

It's true enough, I guess, so I wonder why people continue to ask this question or make this thread.

It would be neat to hear a fresh perspective if there is one.
true. maybe hagler stalking leonard for a big punch or counter early on cost him, too low activity whilst waiting for the opening. And strangely he didnt seem to take them when they came.
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:43 PM #94
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true. maybe hagler stalking leonard for a big punch or counter early on cost him, too low activity whilst waiting for the opening. And strangely he didnt seem to take them when they came.
1. Most people don't remember that Hagler is two years older than Ray and had been fighting professionally for 14 years (as compared to 10 for Ray). That was Marvin's 64th fight versus 35 for Ray. That's a massive difference in wear and tear. Hagler had lost half a step. The brutal Mugabi fight took a lot out of Marvin. It wasn't the same extent that Frazier 3 just destroyed Ali (and Smokin' Joe) but Marvelous left something of himself in the ring against Mugabi. Of course, Mugabi lost a lot more and was a shell of himself afterwards. I've never seen a fighter lose more of himself in one fight due to punishment than I saw Mugabi lose against Hagler. It wasn't just confidence either. Hagler literally beat The Beast out of Mugabi forever.

2. The ring was enormous. 20 feet is a huge ring for a middleweight. Ray also got different glove sizes (larger) and a 12 round fight instead of a 15. None of this is a knock against Leonard. In fact, it was stupid of Hagler to agree to these kinds of demands and every one of them worked against him. Hagler was effective cutting off the ring but it's damn tough to do against a fast opponent when it's the size of an Olympic swimming pool. The larger gloves made it easier to diffuse the impact of Hagler's punches and made Ray's light taps look good. Finally Hagler was notoriously a slow starter and a strong finisher because he was in great shape. By losing 3 rounds on the back end, when Ray would be slower and at his most vulnerable, Hagler gave away a massive advantage.

Or, to your point, the ring size + gloves made Marvin look slow and the rounds where he would have looked the best weren't part of the fight.

Again, I still think Marvin won by a round. I can see it going to Ray by a round. The 118-110 was outright fraud and I have little doubt that judge was paid off.
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:50 PM #95
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1. Most people don't remember that Hagler is two years older than Ray and had been fighting professionally for 14 years (as compared to 10 for Ray). That was Marvin's 64th fight versus 35 for Ray. That's a massive difference in wear and tear. Hagler had lost half a step. The brutal Mugabi fight took a lot out of Marvin. It wasn't the same extent that Frazier 3 just destroyed Ali (and Smokin' Joe) but Marvelous left something of himself in the ring against Mugabi. Of course, Mugabi lost a lot more and was a shell of himself afterwards. I've never seen a fighter lose more of himself in one fight due to punishment than I saw Mugabi lose against Hagler. It wasn't just confidence either. Hagler literally beat The Beast out of Mugabi forever.

2. The ring was enormous. 20 feet is a huge ring for a middleweight. Ray also got different glove sizes (larger) and a 12 round fight instead of a 15. None of this is a knock against Leonard. In fact, it was stupid of Hagler to agree to these kinds of demands and every one of them worked against him. Hagler was effective cutting off the ring but it's damn tough to do against a fast opponent when it's the size of an Olympic swimming pool. The larger gloves made it easier to diffuse the impact of Hagler's punches and made Ray's light taps look good. Finally Hagler was notoriously a slow starter and a strong finisher because he was in great shape. By losing 3 rounds on the back end, when Ray would be slower and at his most vulnerable, Hagler gave away a massive advantage.

Or, to your point, the ring size + gloves made Marvin look slow and the rounds where he would have looked the best weren't part of the fight.

Again, I still think Marvin won by a round. I can see it going to Ray by a round. The 118-110 was outright fraud and I have little doubt that judge was paid off.
Granath makes some solid points here.
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Old 01-16-2019, 02:57 AM #96
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--- As I recall, the ring was 24 foot, the largest ring the rules would allow then.

Rules change with the tides and there seems to be a movement to 20' max/16' minimum.

At any rate, allowing Ray to select the gloves and 12 rd distance in exchange for getting Ray and his big money in the ring is something that any game fighter would do.

What Marv didn't know was Ray had been in secret training privately for a year and was in the best shape of his life. Ray suckered him and immediately retired which became his signifiers money grab against the faded Hearns and Duran wit a sanctioned two division title grab against weight drained LH champ Lalonde who had to weigh 168 to get the jackpot .

Ray lost a lot of fans, but he was always about the money, not any honor and respect.
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Old 01-16-2019, 09:51 AM #97
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I have no issue with either guy winning 115-113. The 118-110 scorecard for SRL is one of the worst cards I've ever seen and I've been watching the sport almost 40 years.
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Old 01-18-2019, 04:06 AM #98
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Originally Posted by QueensburyRules View Post
--- As I recall, the ring was 24 foot, the largest ring the rules would allow then.

Rules change with the tides and there seems to be a movement to 20' max/16' minimum.

At any rate, allowing Ray to select the gloves and 12 rd distance in exchange for getting Ray and his big money in the ring is something that any game fighter would do.

What Marv didn't know was Ray had been in secret training privately for a year and was in the best shape of his life. Ray suckered him and immediately retired which became his signifiers money grab against the faded Hearns and Duran wit a sanctioned two division title grab against weight drained LH champ Lalonde who had to weigh 168 to get the jackpot .

Ray lost a lot of fans, but he was always about the money, not any honor and respect.
Not always. But not at that point of his career, for sure. After the loss in the first Duran fight is when that seemed to start. Then we see Leonard demand an immediate rematch, knowing Duran would have trouble making weight, later deciding to retire again after the Kevin Howard fight instead of fighting Hagler at that point, knowing Hagler was still too tough an opponent and then finally coming back when he thought fighting Hagler was a safer bet and even then it was still a close fight. And, of course, the above mentioned money grabs with Hearns and Duran and the gamesmanship with Lalonde that lost him a lot of fans and respect because of that later part of his career. I think Hearns pulled off the win in that rematch. Just saw Leonard on a rerun of the new Match Game, hosted by Alec Baldwin, by the way and he doesn't look too bad.
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Old 02-14-2019, 03:58 AM #99
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Granath makes some solid points here.
I agree with Granath and OctoberRed.
We also have to keep in mind that Hagler agreed to all possible terms required by Leonard. So sure was he about winning the fight.
12 million dollar purse....sure. But why on earth did Hagler wait almost additional 6 months before telling Mike Trainer that he was willing to take the fight?
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:25 AM #100
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--- Marv called for the rematch immediately.

Ray retired immediately. Unless you're an insider you don't know what if any negotiations were. After a year of inactivity while chasing the ghost fight, Marv retired as in really retired.

Ray immediately came out of retirement to offer Marv a deal just to jerk him around, but obviously not to Marvs satisfaction.

We know Marv is a man of his word whereas Ray is not. Like I say, Ray won the suits orchestrated battle, but Marv won the war with bukos fans flocking to his side of the traditional equation.

Ray = Let them eat cake whereas Marv was Meat and Potatoes is what's for dinner.
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