Golovking still hasn't beaten a P4P fighter

[TonyGe]

If that is the case, he has to do a better performance against non ranked fighters to justify his position. Pretty simple, nah?

Golovkin has been devastating in his division. Whether he is number one P4P or not he's dominated.

[KingHippo]

If you're referring to Daniel Jacobs, then simply put, he was 'destroyed' by Dmitry Pirog when he was much younger and inexperienced compared to now. Boxers improve. To argue that Daniel Jacobs was just as good when he fought Pirog as he is now is inaccurate and false. Chances are, Dmitry Pirog wold be unlikely to score a KO if he fought the current version of Daniel Jacobs.

Just for your information, GGG has already knocked out some common opponents who Dmitry Pirog himself couldn't knockout, or opponents who were previously not knocked out and some not knocked out after GGG knocked them out (Martin Murray). Or even better, he has knocked out many opponents that were previously unbeaten prior to facing him!

For example, GGG knocked Ishida out cold and out of the ring. Dmitry Pirog went 12 rounds with the same Ishida and won a decision.

In addition to Daniel Jacobs being a more improved fighter now compared to when he lost against Dmitry Pirog, styles also make fights. Dmitry Pirog might still be able to knock Daniel Jacobs out (probably with more effort), but it doesn't mean much other than styles make fight. There are also other opponents who GGG would knockout that Dmitry Pirog wouldn't. GGG going 12 rounds against Daniel Jacobs isn't any evidence of the middleweight division being weak / poor.

As far as winning convincingly, I actually thought GGG did win pretty convincingly. Not as convincingly as knocking a guy out or beating a guy pillar to post, but convincingly enough! If any current boxer deserves to have a comfortable win, it's GGG! Considering the number of fights where GGG has destroyed or knocked out opponents, he deserves and warrants one close fight. That doesn't mean that the middleweight division is 'weak' or poor. Pretty much every boxer at some point will be in a close fight. Pretty much any top level boxers from their respective divisions are having similar types of wins as GGG did against Jacobs. However, it seems to be GGG that gets criticized more than those other top boxers who get into more closer fights more frequently yet not as many people complain that their weight division is poor / weak or that they aren't as good.

GGG's dominance was real. He may have fought many low level opposition too, but the margin in which he beat those 'low caliber' opposition was better and more convincing than many of the other top 'P4P boxers'. Kell Brook that faced GGG and Miguel Cotto that faced Canelo Alvarez are both similar caliber of opposition. One might argue that Kell Brook is even better than Cotto due to being younger, unbeaten and in his prime when he fought GGG compared to when Miguel Cotto fought Canelo Alvarez where he was old, past his best, previously beaten many times and knocked out. However, both were top welterweights and both were similar in size. Against similar caliber of opposition, GGG destroys Kell Brook with a jetlag in 5 rounds, nearly ending Brook's boxing career whereas Canelo Alvarez goes life and death and gets into a very close fight, having to go the distance against a worse, older cotto. That's just one of many examples. GGG beats similar caliber of opposition (top or low quality) by a bigger and more impressive margin than most of the other top P4P boxers like Canelo Alvarez.

Unfortunately, I don't see that much of a difference between the Danny Jacobs who fought Pirog and the one who faced Golovkin. I'm sure you can enlighten me on that.

And as far as Golovkin beating Jacobs convincingly, it surely wasn't a shutdown like Crawford - Postol or Rigondeaux - Donaire, so it wasn't convincing enough to warrant a top 3 let alone a number one position.

The middleweight division is weak. Just face it. Having a reigning champion like Billy Joe Saunders is just a testament to this fact. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. Stop kidding yourself.

[Mr Objecitivity]

Unfortunately, I don't see that much of a difference between the Danny Jacobs who fought Pirog and the one who faced Golovkin. I'm sure you can enlighten me on that.

And as far as Golovkin beating Jacobs convincingly, it surely wasn't a shutdown like Crawford - Postol or Rigondeaux - Donaire, so it wasn't convincing enough to warrant a top 3 let alone a number one position.

The middleweight division is weak. Just face it. Having a reigning champion like Billy Joe Saunders is just a testament to this fact. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. Stop kidding yourself.

Unfortunately, I don't see that much of a difference between the Danny Jacobs who fought Pirog and the one who faced Golovkin. I'm sure you can enlighten me on that.

If for arguments sake I agree that Daniel Jacobs hasn't improved since his fight against Dmitry Pirog (not that I do), you still haven't addressed the stylistic principles of boxing. GGG and Dmitry Pirog have another common opponent(Ishida) which GGG knocked out that Dmitry Pirog couldn't. This is evidence of 'styles make fights'.

Furthermore, a boxer is allowed to have one fight where he isn't at his ABSOLUTE best, firing on all cylinders. Every boxer, if they compete for long enough will have such nights. If anyone is entitled to such a performance, it's certainly GGG. So I'm not entirely sure what exactly you're trying to infer by claiming GGG didn't beat Daniel Jacobs 'convincingly'.

And as far as Golovkin beating Jacobs convincingly, it surely wasn't a shutdown like Crawford - Postol or Rigondeaux - Donaire,

It wasn't entirely a 'shutdown', but it was as close as. Daniel Jacobs didn't win more than 3 rounds max in my scorecards. Guillermo Rigondeaux was in a fight that was just as close against Drian Francisco (nowhere near the same caliber of opposition as Daniel Jacobs).

Terence Crawford lost more rounds against Yuriorkis Gamboa than GGG did against Daniel Jacobs even though Crawford eventually got the late round stoppage.

so it wasn't convincing enough to warrant a top 3 let alone a number one position.

Again, I care very little about P4P rankings. Therefore, feel free to rank GGG wherever you please. P4P rankings are not based on any objective criteria / standards or anything truly factual. Until such a thing is established, P4P rankings remain irrelevant and valueless to me as I am an objective individual that values objectivity.

Objectively speaking, the rankings that mainly matter to me are the rankings of a particular weight division. I judge / evaluate boxers by their respective weight divisions. Meaning, I judge GGG as a middleweight (GGG's weight division) and Canelo Alvarez as a light middleweight (Canelo Alvarez's weight division). As it stands, GGG is the best middleweight in the world with very little doubt!

The middleweight division is weak.

That's an unsubstantiated statement / claim! Thus, it can be dismissed as something that is valueless.

Merely making a statement doesn't make it true. It has to be substantiated.

[KingHippo]

If for arguments sake I agree that Daniel Jacobs hasn't improved since his fight against Dmitry Pirog (not that I do), you still haven't addressed the stylistic principles of boxing. GGG and Dmitry Pirog have another common opponent(Ishida) which GGG knocked out that Dmitry Pirog couldn't. This is evidence of 'styles make fights'.

Furthermore, a boxer is allowed to have one fight where he isn't at his ABSOLUTE best, firing on all cylinders. Every boxer, if they compete for long enough will have such nights. If anyone is entitled to such a performance, it's certainly GGG. So I'm not entirely sure what exactly you're trying to infer by claiming GGG didn't beat Daniel Jacobs 'convincingly'.




It wasn't entirely a 'shutdown', but it was as close as. Daniel Jacobs didn't win more than 3 rounds max in my scorecards. Guillermo Rigondeaux was in a fight that was just as close against Drian Francisco (nowhere near the same caliber of opposition as Daniel Jacobs).

Terence Crawford lost more rounds against Yuriorkis Gamboa than GGG did against Daniel Jacobs even though Crawford eventually got the late round stoppage.



Again, I care very little about P4P rankings. Therefore, feel free to rank GGG wherever you please. P4P rankings are not based on any objective criteria / standards or anything truly factual. Until such a thing is established, P4P rankings remain irrelevant and valueless to me as I am an objective individual that values objectivity.

Objectively speaking, the rankings that mainly matter to me are the rankings of a particular weight division. I judge / evaluate boxers by their respective weight divisions. Meaning, I judge GGG as a middleweight (GGG's weight division) and Canelo Alvarez as a light middleweight (Canelo Alvarez's weight division). As it stands, GGG is the best middleweight in the world with very little doubt!



That's an unsubstantiated statement / claim! Thus, it can be dismissed as something that is valueless.

Merely making a statement doesn't make it true. It has to be substantiated.

The crux of my argument isn't the fact that Pirog beat Jacobs more convincingly, but that Golovkin couldn't beat a B level fighter convincingly enough to warrant a top 3 position. And Jacobs is a level B fighter.

Second, I don't care if you only gave Jacobs 3 rounds. You clearly have a dog in this fight. The official scorecards were 115-112, 115-112 and 114-113. Not even close to a shutdown, but you probably saw it that way because you're blinded by bias. According to most people's accounts, even the staunchest Golovkin fans, it was a competitive fight.

And everytime Golovkin looks ordinary it's either because a) he's sick b) he's having an off night or c) he's getting hit on purpose to look beatable. This is getting tiresome. Can we let go of the myth of invincibility and accept that he can be made to look human by a half decent fighter and that his dominance was mostly due to the fact that he's faced mediocre competition most of his career?

And let me remind you that this thread is about P4P rankings. The main criteria is level of opposition. Therefore dominating a division is irrelevant if the division isn't competitive, unless you sincerely believe David Lemieux and Danny Jacobs are world class fighters.

[Bad_Guy]

OP says GGG hasn't dominated his competition at MW. Prior to Jacobs, over 20 straight fights ended in KO. Maybe OP is expecting GGG to commit murder every fight.

If OP wants to bring up the Jacobs fight being "close," that's fine. However, Danny was put on his ass in front of his home town, out landed the entire fight, given the benefit of the doubt by the judges in his home town (similar to AW's gift), and he STILL lost.

[TonyGe]

The crux of my argument isn't the fact that Pirog beat Jacobs more convincingly, but that Golovkin couldn't beat a B level fighter convincingly enough to warrant a top 3 position. And Jacobs is a level B fighter.

Second, I don't care if you only gave Jacobs 3 rounds. You clearly have a dog in this fight. The official scorecards were 115-112, 115-112 and 114-113. Not even close to a shutdown, but you probably saw it that way because you're blinded by bias. According to most people's accounts, even the staunchest Golovkin fans, it was a competitive fight.

And everytime Golovkin looks ordinary it's either because a) he's sick b) he's having an off night or c) he's getting hit on purpose to look beatable. This is getting tiresome. Can we let go of the myth of invincibility and accept that he can be made to look human by a half decent fighter and that his dominance was mostly due to the fact that he's faced mediocre competition most of his career?

And let me remind you that this thread is about P4P rankings. The main criteria is level of opposition. Therefore dominating a division is irrelevant if the division isn't competitive, unless you sincerely believe David Lemieux and Danny Jacobs are world class fighters.

Yeah they are world class fighters in the middleweight division. Lemieux held a middleweight title and Jacobs was ranked #2 by most boxing pundants. If Golovkin wasn't fighting there would be a lot of competitive fights in the middleweight division. I personally didn't agree with Jacobs ranked so highly but he surprised his critics.

[.!WAR MIKEY!.]

and he never will.

[TonyGe]

The crux of my argument isn't the fact that Pirog beat Jacobs more convincingly, but that Golovkin couldn't beat a B level fighter convincingly enough to warrant a top 3 position. And Jacobs is a level B fighter.

Second, I don't care if you only gave Jacobs 3 rounds. You clearly have a dog in this fight. The official scorecards were 115-112, 115-112 and 114-113. Not even close to a shutdown, but you probably saw it that way because you're blinded by bias. According to most people's accounts, even the staunchest Golovkin fans, it was a competitive fight.

And everytime Golovkin looks ordinary it's either because a) he's sick b) he's having an off night or c) he's getting hit on purpose to look beatable. This is getting tiresome. Can we let go of the myth of invincibility and accept that he can be made to look human by a half decent fighter and that his dominance was mostly due to the fact that he's faced mediocre competition most of his career?

And let me remind you that this thread is about P4P rankings. The main criteria is level of opposition. Therefore dominating a division is irrelevant if the division isn't competitive, unless you sincerely believe David Lemieux and Danny Jacobs are world class fighters.

If ordinary means what he did to Brook then you need to get real. It was a slaughter. He broke his eye socket and when he decided to end it he landed a beautiful combination when Brook was on the ropes and hurt him badly. Brook stopped fighting after that and just looked to survive.

[KingHippo]

If ordinary means what he did to Brook then you need to get real. It was a slaughter. He broke his eye socket and when he decided to end it he landed a beautiful combination when Brook was on the ropes and hurt him badly. Brook stopped fighting after that and just looked to survive.

Again with Brook? WTF?

[NYG]

People really think Jacobs didnt improve since Pirog? Wow