World Records

[Marchegiano]

Kinda forgot about these

Most world titles in different divisions: 8 - Manny Pacquiao

Highest paid athlete: 315mil - Floyd Mayweather.

I got 8 from everywhere that's ever mentioned Pac-Man since he go to 8, I got 315 million from the Huffington Post.

Oh, and this one was solid:

Youngest Champion: 17 - Wilfred Benitez

I got that from my dude yngwie.

You're welcome to tell me why you think it's wrong, or you could actually look into it and set me straight. Otherwise I'm going to continue to truck along posting **** before I research it fully and when I have a healthy list then I'll whittle it down by debunking and validating. Don't misread me, I'm not bothered by your thoughts, they're interesting posts. I'm just telling you blatantly how I plan to approach this given youse guys didn't seem to understand "I'll vet in a bit"

[Marchegiano]

Oh sh^t. That's a bada$$ stat if its correct. With rematches & such that means he retired more half his opponents.

I don't know for sure, but I'll share where I'm at. I've verified by looking at his Boxrec and following the links to his opponent's records that there was at least 24 people who retired five fights or less from their Marciano fight, but that includes guys like ****ell who we all know retired due to medical problems that started long before facing Marciano.

I don't know if they're counting retirements that Marciano was a contributing factor to or if they're only counting retirements that he was the sole cause of, but is looks like the former not the latter.

Then there's the possibility that a guy went on for quite a while, never really recovered, and admitted when he retired even though it'd been some time since he faced Marciano it's the injuries sustained then that caused him to retire.

I figured the only way to vet it was to look at the records of the losers and get the most logical 24 juxtaposed to when they retired then look into reasons they gave for retiring if possible.

I'm not sure of anything with this one and would appreciate any help I can get. It is very difficult to find a reason for a boxer to retire from back then.

[Anthony342]

Yeah, according to Guinness it's 145, on Boxrec it's 132. You have to sign up for an account at Guinness, but I could screenshot it if you're curious and don't want to sign up just to see Archie's record according to Guinness. As far why I have 131 I dunno, probably just a typo. Why GWR has 145 and Boxrec 132, dunno. I'll look into it, you're welcome to join me.

Excellent, sir. Thanks for the explanation. Keep them coming. And if today's boxers are supposed to be so much bigger, faster, stronger, then it makes one wonder why they haven't easily broken a lot of these older records, like the ones broken in swimming and track at the summer Olympics.

It might also make it easier and less cluttered to list lineal and/or undisputed champions in the later eras too, but I still find this all fascinating. I remember seeing in some HBO special years ago that Chavez had the latest stoppage win in the first Taylor fight, but I guess because the 12th was the last round, so I think they meant the latest in a fight, as in the last round, because there was only 2 seconds left.

[kafkod]

Well, the last thing my post said is I've yet to look into the validity of anything. I got that from either Boxrec, Guinness World Records, or Wiki. Maybe I should have put Heavyweight reign? If you want to look into it before I have a chance to myself you're welcome to. I'm not sure right off if Tyson's the shortest HW reign, or if there's some other form of semantics that disqualifies situations like the one you've explained, or if it's just wiki BS.

Yeah, it could be correct for shortest heavyweight reign.

[Eff Pandas]

Looked up the Rocky retirement stat cuz I was legit curious & I came up with 15 if you count guys who didn't fight for a year+ after they fought Rocky or 13 if you only count guys who fought Rocky in their last fight.

1st Fight/Mar. 1947 Lee Epperson (Pro Debut) KO by 3

3rd Fight/July 1948 John Edwards (1-1) KO by 1
6th Fight/Aug. 1948 Jimmy Weeks (Pro Debut) KO by 1
7th Fight/Sept. 1948 Humprey Jackson (4-2) KO by 1

16th Fight/May 1949 Jimmy Evans (18-7) KO by 3
18th Fight/July 1949 Harry Haft (13-7) KO by 3
19th Fight/Aug. 1949 Pete Louthis (30-12-5) KO by 3
23rd Fight/Dec. 1949 Pat Richards (24-6-5) KO by 2 *had 1 more fight 3.5yrs later*
25th Fight/Dec. 1949 Carmine Vingo (16-1) KO by 6

27th Fight/June 1950 Eldridge Eatman (22-20-5) KO by 3
29th Fight/Sept. 1950 Johnny Shkor (30-18-2) KO by 6 *had 1 more fight 3.5yrs later*

38th Fight/Oct. 1951 Joe Louis (66-2) KO by 8

39th Fight/Feb. 1952 Lee Savold (100-37-3) KO by 7
40th Fight/Apr. 1952 Gino Buonvino (24-14-8) KO by 2 *fought in his 28th fight*

44th Fight/May 1953 Jersey Joe Walcott (51-17-2) KO by 1 *fought in his 43rd fight*

[Marchegiano]

Looked up the Rocky retirement stat cuz I was legit curious & I came up with 15 if you count guys who didn't fight for a year+ after they fought Rocky or 13 if you only count guys who fought Rocky in their last fight.

1st Fight/Mar. 1947 Lee Epperson (Pro Debut) KO by 3

3rd Fight/July 1948 John Edwards (1-1) KO by 1
6th Fight/Aug. 1948 Jimmy Weeks (Pro Debut) KO by 1
7th Fight/Sept. 1948 Humprey Jackson (4-2) KO by 1

16th Fight/May 1949 Jimmy Evans (18-7) KO by 3
18th Fight/July 1949 Harry Haft (13-7) KO by 3
19th Fight/Aug. 1949 Pete Louthis (30-12-5) KO by 3
23rd Fight/Dec. 1949 Pat Richards (24-6-5) KO by 2 *had 1 more fight 3.5yrs later*
25th Fight/Dec. 1949 Carmine Vingo (16-1) KO by 6

27th Fight/June 1950 Eldridge Eatman (22-20-5) KO by 3
29th Fight/Sept. 1950 Johnny Shkor (30-18-2) KO by 6 *had 1 more fight 3.5yrs later*

38th Fight/Oct. 1951 Joe Louis (66-2) KO by 8

39th Fight/Feb. 1952 Lee Savold (100-37-3) KO by 7
40th Fight/Apr. 1952 Gino Buonvino (24-14-8) KO by 2 *fought in his 28th fight*

44th Fight/May 1953 Jersey Joe Walcott (51-17-2) KO by 1 *fought in his 43rd fight*

Damn, even if we can't verify the 24 total, 13 immediate retirements is damn good. I should have noticed but I was so set on figuring out the supposed 24 I didn't even think to cut down by immediates. You better than halved the search, thanks.

It is probably the hardest thing to get any solid info on out of this and my champions list posts. Obviously I'm a marciano fan and when I read it i thought " Like ****, I'd've known" but it's such a big W if it's true it has to be looked into. Right now I'm still working on the ancients and english golden age in the champion's thread, but I do plan to do some digging today at some point. Hopefully I can verify at least one more. I except vetting this will be very slow. I really appreciate your interest and help.

[Marchegiano]

Excellent, sir. Thanks for the explanation. Keep them coming. And if today's boxers are supposed to be so bigger, faster, stronger, then it makes one wonder why they haven't easily broken a lot of these older records, like the ones broken in swimming and track at the summer Olympics.

It might also make it easier and less cluttered to list lineal and/or undisputed champions in the later eras too, but I still find this all fascinating. I remember seeing in some HBO special years ago that Chavez had the latest stoppage win in the first Taylor fight, but I guess because the 12th was the last round, so I think they meant the latest in a fight, as in the last round, because there was only 2 seconds left.

To the second paragraph. Sounds good to me bud. I'll certainly look to clean this thread up soon.

------

I think I can actually answer the historical reason for durability or it's lack of, but this is merely speculation supported by fact, not anything I've had verified by a respectable historian. I could be off, but dig this:

In the beginning for Greece boxing was a Spartan military training exercise. One soldier would be on offense, his sole goal is to build power and become better acclimated with anatomy. The second soldier was on defense. His sole goal is to stand there and take as many blows as possible, no guard just eating punches. The match would end when offense can no longer throw a punch or defense is knocked out.

I know it sounds absolutely absurd, but the soldiers of the spartan army could take a period war axe to the dome and keep fighting, no helmet needed.

They were thickening their skulls when they boxed. After boxing had become a sport the practice was fathered in. So you've these guys who are like 5'3" 130lbs but can honestly take a friggin axe to their head.

Over time boxing evolved. from the battlefield fighters realized a helmeted soldier can be brought down quickly simply by ringing his helmet like a bell. This is why swords have balls at the end of their handles and long swords only have a sharp edge halfway down the blade. The practice is called half swording. They figured out that if rung properly the frequency would cause a KO, nausea, or even death. When they adopted this idea in boxing it for the most part did away with thickening skulls because a thick skull can't save you from a frequency KO.

Then the Bare Knuckle era happened. Just like everyone else during the renaissance and industrial revolution boxers in this time were looking to relive the glory of antiquity. They started to reintroduce thickening skulls and frequency KOs but they lacked understanding why. They were just mimicking the greats of the past.

Overtime misunderstanding the ancients, the need to be able to speak properly, and the search for reason changed the practices. Skull thickening becomes things like neck thickening as can bee seen in Chuvalo and supported by Chuvalo. Or Dempsey's skin hardening as can be seen in most the pic of Jack. The frequency KO becomes the swarm fighter. Those guys who don't have one punch KO power, but if they catch you with a combo you're probably done. They're not finding power they're finding a frequency in harmony with the shape of the skull.


So today we have these giant guys who do little to nothing to improve their natural resistance. Chuvalo was a rarity, most people do not believe you can build toughness. Trainers, successful trainers, will claim it's not possible, but history is history. It's possible. If you go into a gym talking about frequency KOs and skull thickness they'll likely laugh at you. If you go to a medieval fair and talk to a real history nerd they'll tell you all about it.

Summary

So what I am claiming is being big doesn't give you any more punch resistance than anyone else. The average thickness of human skulls isn't affected by height and weight. It is affected by trauma. The guys from the past, 50s on back, either understood this or didn't question the past enough to deviate too far from it. Today it's a lost art and so you've bigger fighters with weaker chins while the practice used to equalize inhuman chins is still very much in effect and evolving.

[Marchegiano]

Yeah, it could be correct for shortest heavyweight reign.

You're right, just looked it up. Meant to be HW. Even then, no one dropped any belts immediately at HW? I dunno, before I adjust it I want to make sure he has the shortest reign not some BS that absolves other shorter reigns.

[Anthony342]

Cool stuff. Reminds me of seeing interviews of old school defensive players in football that used to do one or two handed slaps to an opposing player's helmet to momentarily daze him in order to get past an offensive lineman and get to the quarterback. I don't think this is legal anymore in the NFL though.

Didn't boxers used to just fight rounds until there was a knockout? Or was there always a limit to the number of rounds and if they reached it, newspaper writers would decide a winner until judges were eventually introduced, also letting the referee score the fight?

[Marchegiano]

Didn't boxers used to just fight rounds until there was a knockout? Or was there always a limit to the number of rounds and if they reached it, newspaper writers would decide a winner until judges were eventually introduced, also letting the referee score the fight?

About when are we talking? The ancients had judges. There's not a set end scheduled per se, but when the hellano***ai got bored with the fight they'd end it. Other than that, yep KO or concession.

When Theaganese stopped Euthymos he was so arrogant about it they fined him and prevented him from fighting in the Pankration. They were pretty damn powerful in ancient boxing.

As far as London Prize Ring and the revision of LPRR goes there's a few ways to end a fight. You can KO them, 30 seconds off their feet. You can prevent them from returning the scratch line, Hammer Lane would throw his opponents on the ground to break their shoulders so they couldn't pick themselves up without a great deal of effort. They may concede. You may tire them so much so they can not rise when the ref calls for them. Some fights had judges, some didn't. Some had pre-determined times, some didn't.

Boxing was still largely illegal, so more often than not fights had to be planned and agreed to. Because fighters needed be secure and feel secure from the police before they show up to fight. So even if they're caught they have get away plans and such, there was a lot of agreeing that had to be done. This is why CBZ notes so many fights that almost happened. The rules, like london prize ring rules, were often edited in some fashion or another.

Rounds, for the most part, were downs. So you can have a very short fight with lots of rounds. steel cleats were used by some fighters who gave away rounds by flopping on every punch and flailing around their cleated feet as they fell. Nonpariel Dempsey suffered a 4 inch cut by Johnny Reagan this way. More often than not a lot of rounds means the fight went long but sometimes it doesn't. The longest fight between Bowen and Burke doesn't feature the most rounds because they were both game and well matched.

I hope that covered it.