Prime Ali vs Prime Marciano: Who wins?

[HOUDINI563]

I don’t rate Rocky over Dempsey. I’m not actually a huge fan of Marciano. Marciano’s style of fighting would give Ali lots of trouble and Ali said so HIMSELF.

[billeau2]

There are few fighters as overrated as Marciano is in my opinion.

To some people he wins every mythical matchup you can think of. But boxing cognoscenti in his day didn't regard him as highly as the current generation seems to, they would never rank him above Jack Dempsey for example.

I tend to trust their opinions and my eyes. So I just call it as I see it.

I tend to be even keel about the best heavyweights, I don't have an absolute favorite, or feel like some guys who are historically noteworthy are overrated. All I ask is that history be allowed to take its course... And many fighters, as it turns out, were not popular when they were active. Holmes, Lewis are two great examples. And other times, fighters like Patterson, who really did not materialize historically as one of the best, were considered very highly when actively fighting. So the fact that Marciano was not rated so highly at any given time is not something I would hold against him.

I also could see hypothetically, at best, saying that he was not one of the best, but it would be hard to call the guy overrated. He beat some great fighters even if it was not in their prime.

I actually think that in many respects, when Manchegino says that Marciano was one of those guys for the ages...M I am paraphrasing you on this one lol...he is right. You had fighters like Robinson who could outclass the opposition...Marciano was not that ilk. Marciano was instead a guy who had tremendous will power. You could never count a guy like him out...So much so that he fought in a minority style, beat some of the best technicians through tremendous presence and almost a sheer force of will power.

beyond that if anyone looks at tape of Marciano carefully...he was very good. I think of all the champions we have that Marciano was perhaps the rarest bird. And when we look way back as Marchegino has done, Marciano is closer to those tremendous champs through the ages in his ability to make his body such an instrument of his will.

I just don't think one can call him overrated. And while many might call him a weak champ there are many trainers who profess that he was the best, or one of the best.

[ShoulderRoll]

I tend to be even keel about the best heavyweights, I don't have an absolute favorite, or feel like some guys who are historically noteworthy are overrated. All I ask is that history be allowed to take its course... And many fighters, as it turns out, were not popular when they were active. Holmes, Lewis are two great examples. And other times, fighters like Patterson, who really did not materialize historically as one of the best, were considered very highly when actively fighting. So the fact that Marciano was not rated so highly at any given time is not something I would hold against him.

I also could see hypothetically, at best, saying that he was not one of the best, but it would be hard to call the guy overrated. He beat some great fighters even if it was not in their prime.

I actually think that in many respects, when Manchegino says that Marciano was one of those guys for the ages...M I am paraphrasing you on this one lol...he is right. You had fighters like Robinson who could outclass the opposition...Marciano was not that ilk. Marciano was instead a guy who had tremendous will power. You could never count a guy like him out...So much so that he fought in a minority style, beat some of the best technicians through tremendous presence and almost a sheer force of will power.

beyond that if anyone looks at tape of Marciano carefully...he was very good. I think of all the champions we have that Marciano was perhaps the rarest bird. And when we look way back as Marchegino has done, Marciano is closer to those tremendous champs through the ages in his ability to make his body such an instrument of his will.

I just don't think one can call him overrated. And while many might call him a weak champ there are many trainers who profess that he was the best, or one of the best.

People see the undefeated record and automatically want to rush him to the front of the line. That's what makes him overrated because he simply isn't among the upper echelon of heavyweight champions in my opinion.

This wasn't an uncommon position if you look at how Marciano was rated by fighters, trainers, and media in the years after he retired.

But as time has gone on and the old boxing men who knew the sport inside and out have died off I see more of a push to elevate his place in history beyond what he merits.

[ShoulderRoll]

I tend to be even keel about the best heavyweights, I don't have an absolute favorite, or feel like some guys who are historically noteworthy are overrated. All I ask is that history be allowed to take its course... And many fighters, as it turns out, were not popular when they were active. Holmes, Lewis are two great examples. And other times, fighters like Patterson, who really did not materialize historically as one of the best, were considered very highly when actively fighting. So the fact that Marciano was not rated so highly at any given time is not something I would hold against him.

I also could see hypothetically, at best, saying that he was not one of the best, but it would be hard to call the guy overrated. He beat some great fighters even if it was not in their prime.

I actually think that in many respects, when Manchegino says that Marciano was one of those guys for the ages...M I am paraphrasing you on this one lol...he is right. You had fighters like Robinson who could outclass the opposition...Marciano was not that ilk. Marciano was instead a guy who had tremendous will power. You could never count a guy like him out...So much so that he fought in a minority style, beat some of the best technicians through tremendous presence and almost a sheer force of will power.

beyond that if anyone looks at tape of Marciano carefully...he was very good. I think of all the champions we have that Marciano was perhaps the rarest bird. And when we look way back as Marchegino has done, Marciano is closer to those tremendous champs through the ages in his ability to make his body such an instrument of his will.

I just don't think one can call him overrated. And while many might call him a weak champ there are many trainers who profess that he was the best, or one of the best.

People see the undefeated record and automatically want to rush him to the front of the line. That's what makes him overrated because he simply isn't among the upper echelon of heavyweight champions in my opinion.

This wasn't an uncommon position if you look at how Marciano was rated by fighters, trainers, and media in the years after he retired.

But as time has gone on and the old boxing men who knew the sport inside and out have died off I see more of a push to elevate his place in history beyond what he merits.

Monte Cox explains it well:


Consider that in the Dec. 1962 Ring magazine poll of 40 boxing experts it was Jack Dempsey that was rated the # 1 Heavyweight of all time with Joe Louis 2nd, Jack Johnson 3rd and Marciano finishing a distant 7th, way behind Dempsey. If he was considered 7th in 1962 how does he propel to the top 5, when since then we have had Muhammad Ali who faced much tougher competition, the big power hitting George Foreman, Larry Holmes who made 20 title defenses, the bigger, faster and more powerful Mike Tyson, and the giant Lennox Lewis who at 6’5” 245 pounds would enjoy a 60 pound weight advantage over Marciano? This is a key point. Nat Fleischer rated Marciano at # 10, Charley Rose rated him at # 8, McCallum's survey of old-timers had him at # 9. No major historian who saw Marciano in their lifetime thought he was a top 5 all time heavyweight and 50 years have passed since Rocky retired as champion.


http://coxscorner.tripod.com/rocky.html

[billeau2]

People see the undefeated record and automatically want to rush him to the front of the line. That's what makes him overrated because he simply isn't among the upper echelon of heavyweight champions in my opinion.

This wasn't an uncommon position if you look at how Marciano was rated by fighters, trainers, and media in the years after he retired.

But as time has gone on and the old boxing men who knew the sport inside and out have died off I see more of a push to elevate his place in history beyond what he merits.

I would agree that his undefeated record should not be held up as making him special in and of itself. The old boxing men who came up with Marciano are just now dying off, Lew Duva for example, who thought Marciano was the best, along with Don Turner BTW who dealt with Holyfield extensively...So he has his fans.

I don't rate him top 5...Have not thought about top 10 for a while now lol so would have to think about it.

[ShoulderRoll]

I would agree that his undefeated record should not be held up as making him special in and of itself. The old boxing men who came up with Marciano are just now dying off, Lew Duva for example, who thought Marciano was the best, along with Don Turner BTW who dealt with Holyfield extensively...So he has his fans.

I don't rate him top 5...Have not thought about top 10 for a while now lol so would have to think about it.

I was editing my post as you responded. See Monte D. Cox's take on this that I added...he expresses my sentiments exactly. And this was always the prevailing view as I studied up on boxing history over the years.

Only recently has it seemed to be changing.

[billeau2]

I was editing my post as you responded. See Monte D. Cox's take on this that I added...he expresses my sentiments exactly. And this was always the prevailing view as I studied up on boxing history over the years.

Only recently has it seemed to be changing.

Many said that the era had a weak heavyweight division. There is truth to that for sure. for example Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore were great fighters but going for low hanging fruit with Marciano... as neither was a bona fide heavyweight for most of their career.

[joseph5620]

The facts are the facts. Frazier HIMSELF stated his right hand was a work in progress as late as before his bout with Ali in 75. Frazier HIMSELF stated his legs were slow. These were very well understood defects of Frazier’s abilities during his time. Of course he overcame these defects via his ATG will to win, determination and killer instinct. (although I don’t rate Joe as a top ten ATG).

I do believe Marciano vs Frazier would be a war while it lasted. Joes hook against a fighter who fought lower and smaller would be greatly nullified while Marciano’s right hand would land all night. Marciano’s right beats Joes hook to the punch for the KO win in ten hard fought rounds.

By your own admission Frazier had faster hands (He did). So why would Marciano beat him to the punch? Frazier's hook would not be "nullified" by a fighter that wasn't that difficult to hit.

Frazier was faster and better defensively so that doesn't add up.

[HOUDINI563]

No Joe was not better defensively.

Marciano would fight smaller and lower than Frazier allowing him to better roll under Joes Hook. In an inside fight Frazier would be open for straight rights over his left.

Marciano has a huge advantage having two fists that can KO an opponent vs Frazier. Huge deficit for Joe here.

Few rate Marciano top five. That’s really not even a debate. Top ten absolutely. I rate him No 10.

I don’t rate Marciano highly because he retired undefeated but it is a huge deal historically. No other hwt champion ended their career never losing a fight.

[embryo]

Marciano would have that face smashed apart by Ali's jabs and right hands, it would be a bloody mess.