Where Did It All Go Wrong Between Ali and Frazier?

[Weltschmerz]

Would be great with some more actual references here, a lot of this sounds like speculation.

[punchr]

Ali was an idiot. Frazier was just smart enough to see through his bullshit. Only sheeple believe that "the greatest" self-branding Ali was trying to peddle. Who was he? Or better yet who is he? He's dead and gone!! His body will be eaten by the maggots. and worms. He ain't no king!! Ali didn't feed me or clothe me or wipe my ass.

[LacedUp]

yeah, i mean i could see that happening and joe still being bitter . and ali still regretting that joe knocked him down. i'm glad they cried it out. that's good to know.

when did they get together for the reunion marvis frazier is referencing?

Late in Joe's life. Most likely 2009/2010. It comes from Marvin Frazier, in the documentary "I am Ali". It was a touching moment in the film.

Did not know that. I hope it's true.

They gave the world some tremendous fights and left a bit of themselves in the ring all the time.

They did. The only outcome of it all I didn't like is how Joe Frazier was not forgotten, but not treated as royalty the same way Ali was.

It would have been nice for the world to remember them as what they were: equals.

[Terrel]

Late in Joe's life. Most likely 2009/2010. It comes from Marvin Frazier, in the documentary "I am Ali". It was a touching moment in the film.



They did. The only outcome of it all I didn't like is how Joe Frazier was not forgotten, but not treated as royalty the same way Ali was.

It would have been nice for the world to remember them as what they were: equals.

I'm tearing up. The Ali-Frazier rivalry played a huge role in my upbringing. My father used to show me fights on a regular basis. The trilogy with these two showed just how equal they were.

In the last fight when Frazier was pulled out of the fight by his corner, Ali said, he wasn't too far from staying on the stool himself. The ones who know, know.

[_Maxi]

frazier used to have a reunion with ali whenever it made monetary sense. paid interviews, appearances, etc. from all accounts he was still very bitter toward ali until he died.

i used to work for a radio show, and his publicist used to tell us that "joe is still bitter about some things," and i think that was the best way to describe it.


one of the biggest insults to frazier was muhammad trying to take away his identity as a black man in america, calling him an uncle tom, etc. joe frazier was the son of a share cropper, and literally worked fields when he was young. his youth was anything but favored by white america, and his experience was just as "black" as ali's. ali painted him as a, dumb, subservient and complacent black man, and joe never forgave him for it.


the two were also friends in the 60's, and joe, IIRC, was involved in getting ali a license to train and fight. all of a sudden joe sees this guy he helped out screaming in the media about how he's a gorilla . i'd think the guy two faced, myself.

Good post man, I feel the same. Ali did some b1tch moves... he wasn't the perfect person that some people claim.

[LacedUp]

I'm tearing up. The Ali-Frazier rivalry played a huge role in my upbringing. My father used to show me fights on a regular basis. The trilogy with these two showed just how equal they were.

In the last fight when Frazier was pulled out of the fight by his corner, Ali said, he wasn't too far from staying on the stool himself. The ones who know, know.

I think most people accept that Joe would have won the final fight if he had been allowed to continue and just stood up. He had taken a beating the last couple of rounds, but Ali could barely stand.

Two great fighters.

[- Ram Raid -]

This Sports illustrated article by William Nack, "The Fight's Over, Joe" from 1996 does a good job of capturing the relationship the two men had. The story of Holmes and Foreman shielding Ali from a drunken bitter Frazier after the filming of Champions Forever sums it up for me.

http://www.si.com/vault/1996/09/30/2...r-war-of-words

It sounds nice and Marvis has a motive for claiming it but I don't believe Frazier ever truely forgave him.

What Ali did can't be dismissed or washed away. He was venomous to some of his Black opponents like Terrell and Patterson. With Floyd I can understand. He was heavily involved in the struggle for Civil Rights as a staunch integrationist, the diametric opposite of the stance that the Nation of Islam had taken with their separtist views. In the struggle over Black representation Patterson was a legitmate target. But whilst Floyd wasn't forcefull he wasn't an inarticulate man and he had the weight of integrationists both Black and white behind him. He could debate on how civil rights gains would be best acheived, he felt sympathy for Ali's stance and that of tens of thousands of rightfully angry Black Americans, but he ultimately felt their position was misguided.

Frazier wasn't embedded in that movement. He wasn't insulated from Ali's taunts and that's part of the reason that Ali choose him as a target to unload his separatist rhetoric on. Because he could barely answer back. In the struggle over Black representation Frazier wasn't a combatant, he was a victim. Ali later claimed he did it to sell tickets (he onced asked Chuck Wepner backstage of a talk show to call him a ****** when they went on air. He refused so Ali claimed he'd called it him anyway) as if belittling a proud Black man as part of a promotion was any better than belittling him because he genuinely was against what he felt he stood for.

Frazier didn't stand for anything other than being a head down hard working decent blue collar African-American who provided for his family. That and being one of the best heavyweights to ever lace up a pair of gloves. Ali turned him into a pawn over what it meant to be a Black man socially and politically and he used that in turn to make money.

I'm a massive fan of Muhammad Ali but to be so uncritically would make him next to worthless. I don't think what he did to Frazier was forgivable and that's part of the reason I don't believe Frazier ever really forgave him.