Jack Dempsey vs Lennox Lewis

[Anthony342]

There are a lot of Samoans coming up through the ranks in Northern California. I know because I was sort of an "honored guest" at the first shows in San Francisco. In our gym and in that area lots and lots of Tonga and Samoan's coming up.

I think in the years to come some of these guys will be coaching pros and turning pro...its a matter of time.

I know that as of yet there is not a big MMA professional presence. One thing to be aware of is that MMA is still sussing out amateur versus professional levels. There are starting to be many regional events where guys get paid and are pretty fair fighters actually. UFC is a small minority of guys who get paid to fight MMA and one thing about Dana White is the need to start to scout talent in areas...hence some of the shows and stuff where they put guys through a training for a place to fight.

Interesting. But check out those Haku stories, if you haven't yet. That dude is hardcore, legend. You'd have to be crazy to mess with him.

[Fury4daWIN]

I'm not sure Dempsey would have been allowed to enter the ring with Lennox Lewis, and if he did, we would call Lewis all kinds of names for taking such a fight...

You can't compare Lewis with some of the big men from the early 1900, worlds apart in terms of technique, fundamentals, conditioning, delivery, many things evolved...

Dempsey is an ATG, he was great, in his time, that doesn't mean he would be competitive with modern heavies, let alone modern ATGs... These are mismatches, no other way around, just my opinion...

Exactly this. There's no big debate here, no matter what people try to argue. In fact, if it wasn't for the nostalgia many people feel for Dempsey and his era and the disdain with which they view the modern era this wouldn't even be considered.

Honestly, it's like asking: does Kovalev beat Ortiz? Does Andre Ward beat Wladimir Klitschko? Does GGG beat David Haye? That's essentially the level of question people are debating here, without realising the ridiculousness of the question in the first place.

It's not taking anything away from Dempsey to say this is a physical mismatch. He was a hell of a fighter and a real life badass with a great backstory. But he was just not a modern heavyweight. He wasn't even a natural cruiserweight to be honest when you take into account what some of those guys cut to make weight. And as good as he was at fighting big men, or rather one big man, they weren't Lennox, nowhere near.

[Pugilist_Spec]

Exactly this. There's no big debate here, no matter what people try to argue. In fact, if it wasn't for the nostalgia many people feel for Dempsey and his era and the disdain with which they view the modern era this wouldn't even be considered.

Honestly, it's like asking: does Kovalev beat Ortiz? Does Andre Ward beat Wladimir Klitschko? Does GGG beat David Haye? That's essentially the level of question people are debating here, without realising the ridiculousness of the question in the first place.

It's not taking anything away from Dempsey to say this is a physical mismatch. He was a hell of a fighter and a real life badass with a great backstory. But he was just not a modern heavyweight. He wasn't even a natural cruiserweight to be honest when you take into account what some of those guys cut to make weight. And as good as he was at fighting big men, or rather one big man, they weren't Lennox, nowhere near.

The size disparity is not as great as you're making it out to be. Dempsey was a natural, albeit small heavyweight.

The weight of Dempsey only reflects the era he fought in, different training methods, and the adaption to what was essentially different sport. Dempsey at 190 lb was dry. Skin and bone. Fighters of that era made it a rule to come in as light as possible, while still being able to perform on an optimal level. If Dempsey were born today, he'd eat more, he'd lift weights, he'd fill out that frame of his because modern slow-paced, 12 round boxing with 10 oz gloves favors just that. The reason big guys didn't profilerate in early eras was due to more rounds, lighter gloves and a faster pace - all of which favoured smaller boxers and evened out the playing field.

A guy like Povetkin is not "bigger than Dempsey"...the weight he has on him is artificial. The difference in actual frame between them is inconsequential Switch out their training regimes, make Povetkin focus entirely on roadwork, sparring and conditioning - keeping his weight down - and he'd come in at 200 lb. In contrast, juice Dempsey up and make him lift weights, and he'd probably be 220 easily.

[Fury4daWIN]

The size disparity is not as great as you're making it out to be. Dempsey was a natural, albeit small heavyweight.

There is no way that a guy 185lbs can be considered any form of heavyweight today. Modern cruiserweights cut from 210 and they're still considered small when they step up. And many of these guys are ripped to shreds and juiced to the gills (see Rakhim Chakhiev or Youri Kalenga). Dempsey would be giving up over 40lbs against Lewis. That's a huge frikking weight disparity.

The weight of Dempsey only reflects the era he fought in, different training methods, and the adaption to what was essentially different sport. Dempsey at 190 lb was dry. Skin and bone. Fighters of that era made it a rule to come in as light as possible, while still being able to perform on an optimal level. If Dempsey were born today, he'd eat more, he'd lift weights, he'd fill out that frame of his because modern slow-paced, 12 round boxing with 10 oz gloves favors just that. The reason big guys didn't profilerate in early eras was due to more rounds, lighter gloves and a faster pace - all of which favoured smaller boxers and evened out the playing field.

A guy like Povetkin is not "bigger than Dempsey"...the weight he has on him is artificial. The difference in actual frame between them is inconsequential Switch out their training regimes, make Povetkin focus entirely on roadwork, sparring and conditioning - keeping his weight down - and he'd come in at 200 lb. In contrast, juice Dempsey up and make him lift weights, and he'd probably be 220 easily.

If Dempsey was 220lbs he wouldn't be Dempsey.

We're talking about the actual guy here, aren't we? Not some mythical superman version.

[W. Ledochowski]

Beyonce Bomber and Ben Bolt hit the point and they get it... From the 70s on, HW boxing started to evolve steadily, bigger athletes started to appear and dominate, with few miraculous exceptions like Tyson...

And it's not only about sheer size, although weight matters a lot, and there are weight classes for a reason, but what about the much better conditioning, the fundamentals, combinations, much better power delivery through technique...

And yes, PEDs of course, every professional athlete is on it, period, and back in the early 1900 i'm sure they used anything available, being stimulants, cocaine, protoypes of test and steroids, and such... Of course we can say "what if Dempsey used today's drugs?", but that's too hypotetical, we can only base these discussions on what we've seen and what we've had...

So with that, Lewis KO1 Dempsey, mismatch, Dempsey is great and ATG in his time, we are asking him to do the impossible, defeating or be competitive with a much more evolved, much bigger, much more powerful, much more technically sound, modern HW who proved himself against other modern HWs... That's it, in my opinion...

[ShoulderRoll]

And it's not only about sheer size, although weight matters a lot, and there are weight classes for a reason, but what about the much better conditioning, the fundamentals, combinations, much better power delivery through technique...

Boxers today are not better conditioned, many of them can barely go 12 rounds much less 15 like in the old days.

As for boxing technique and power delivery I suggest you go read Dempsey's book. A lot of modern fighters could learn a thing or two about doing a correct shoulder whirl and having proper upward surge. Well rounded heavyweights with a comprehensive understanding of fundamentals are in short supply.

[Fury4daWIN]

Boxers today are not better conditioned, many of them can barely go 12 rounds much less 15 like in the old days.

As for boxing technique and power delivery I suggest you go read Dempsey's book. A lot of modern fighters could learn a thing or two about doing a correct shoulder whirl and having proper upward surge. Well rounded heavyweights with a comprehensive understanding of fundamentals are in short supply.

Dempsey himself wasn't that textbook in throwing punches. He looked awful in stretches against Willard, doing that straight backed windmill punching thing that early 1900s pugilists were prone to doing. If a smaller fighter fought a larger heavy like that today we'd be laughing at them, not praising their technique.

I will say that Dempsey did know what he was talking about though. That book is excellent reading and much of its material holds up today.

[W. Ledochowski]

Dempsey himself wasn't that textbook in throwing punches. He looked awful in stretches against Willard, doing that straight backed windmill punching thing that early 1900s pugilists were prone to doing. If a smaller fighter fought a larger heavy like that today we'd be laughing at them, not praising their technique.

I will say that Dempsey did know what he was talking about though. That book is excellent reading and much of its material holds up today.

Pretty much... And regarding conditioning, yeah back then they could go on and on, stamina was probably overall better, but at what pace? And they were smaller and much less muscular and explosive...

[ShoulderRoll]

They were less muscular but not less explosive. Back then they built supple fighting muscles not big lumps to look good on the beach. It was all about function.

[juggernaut666]

Boxers today are not better conditioned, many of them can barely go 12 rounds much less 15 like in the old days.

As for boxing technique and power delivery I suggest you go read Dempsey's book. A lot of modern fighters could learn a thing or two about doing a correct shoulder whirl and having proper upward surge. Well rounded heavyweights with a comprehensive understanding of fundamentals are in short supply.

I don't know how many posts I have posted that proves this theory wrong...it was proven wrong b/c I showed statistically fighters of MUCH bigger weights are more active actually per round......why one would argue why a heavier guy of 230 plus has to be more active than a 190/200 pound Hw is a bigger question?