Is Lennox Lewis the best Overall heavyweight in history?

[juggernaut666]

Tyson is always tough to evaluate because of his competition and his own issues. One gets the impression that one guy who could and did really beat Tyson up time and time again...was Tyson!

I want to weigh in on Tyson versus Lewis because this is one of those fights where we have precedent. We cannot compare the Tyson Lewis fought to a prime ready to rumble TYson, I think we all agree to that factoid.

One problem Lewis had was being ackward. He actually saved himself imo against Vitali because Vitali was right there in front of him... Meanwhile Mercer, for example, presented some problems because Lewis had to find him. Lewis was quoted as saying after that fight "I trained wrong." Perhaps explaining a lack of mobility?

Juggy has mentioned situations where Lewis got hit. Its also worth noting that Lewis was able to defeat Ruddock nicely because he found a way to avoid getting hit by Razor's strong punch. Razor was very good at setting up his dominant hand...often persisting in attacking the body, etc to get his hook off. A chess game like this plays right into Lewis strength. By staying to the side of Razor and using the jab Lewis set up his flurries, using superior speed as an advantage as well. So what of Mike Tyson?

Tyson would come in on Lewis and that would be a real problem for Lewis. Prime Tyson had head movement and could punch either hand, going back and Forwards. Holmes had some success against Mike with his jab, but even Holmes, while diminished, still having a great jab, could not keep Mike off with the jab.

I think this means that Lewis would taste Mike's power for sure. Could Lewis' chin survive? Lewis did get rocked occasionally, thats a fact. These two had a rivalry not for nothin!

To say that Lewis would easily best a prime Tyson is wrong imo. Some big guys were able to take Mike's power (bone crusher for example) but Lewis, while not having a bad chin, did get rocked occasionally. Getting rocked by Shannon Briggs is not the same as getting rocked by prime Tyson... Though Briggs was better than people now make him out to be.

Edit: can anyone think of a time Lewis was down and took a count? Because it would be interesting to see if Tyson knocked him down, like he did with Razor Ruddock, how recuperative Lewis would be. This is an unknown regarding this mythical match up.

One more thing: Tyson was hard to hit in the early rounds with his head movement...even in the actual fight between the two one could see that lewis had to extend himself to catch Tyson. The longer the fight goes the better Lewis' chances.

Ruddock was susceptible to over hand right hands on top of his head ,this is also why Tyson at 5'10 /5'11 would never land that punch and why a guy like Bone Crusher Smith knocked him down and wobbled him badly . Lets also not forget Tyson knocked Ruddock down with a JAB .

You also have to look at what made Tyson fight at his best is MOTIVATION .Lewis would have certainly done that ,of course the match is not even possibility bc Lewis after the struggle with trying to k.o Billups a washed up journey man had again switched trainers and that lead to a total different puncher in his 20th fight winning the U.K belt against a far better class of fighter trained by A.Dundee wthat resembled an Ali LIKE style and won by quick K.O .This was in 1992 and THIS Lewis was not better than Tyson bc Lewis had to develop longer .

Lewis never showed good recuperating skills ,look at him after his knock downs ,he was rattled somewhat easy at times but thats why a good talent is needed to stay on him and Tyson was a great finisher.

Anyone claims that Tyson CANT defeat Lewis at any point are just fighter fans not fight fans ,big difference .

[StarshipTrooper]

Tyson is always tough to evaluate because of his competition and his own issues. One gets the impression that one guy who could and did really beat Tyson up time and time again...was Tyson!

I want to weigh in on Tyson versus Lewis because this is one of those fights where we have precedent. We cannot compare the Tyson Lewis fought to a prime ready to rumble TYson, I think we all agree to that factoid.

One problem Lewis had was being ackward. He actually saved himself imo against Vitali because Vitali was right there in front of him... Meanwhile Mercer, for example, presented some problems because Lewis had to find him. Lewis was quoted as saying after that fight "I trained wrong." Perhaps explaining a lack of mobility?

Juggy has mentioned situations where Lewis got hit. Its also worth noting that Lewis was able to defeat Ruddock nicely because he found a way to avoid getting hit by Razor's strong punch. Razor was very good at setting up his dominant hand...often persisting in attacking the body, etc to get his hook off. A chess game like this plays right into Lewis strength. By staying to the side of Razor and using the jab Lewis set up his flurries, using superior speed as an advantage as well. So what of Mike Tyson?

Tyson would come in on Lewis and that would be a real problem for Lewis. Prime Tyson had head movement and could punch either hand, going back and Forwards. Holmes had some success against Mike with his jab, but even Holmes, while diminished, still having a great jab, could not keep Mike off with the jab.

I think this means that Lewis would taste Mike's power for sure. Could Lewis' chin survive? Lewis did get rocked occasionally, thats a fact. These two had a rivalry not for nothin!

To say that Lewis would easily best a prime Tyson is wrong imo. Some big guys were able to take Mike's power (bone crusher for example) but Lewis, while not having a bad chin, did get rocked occasionally. Getting rocked by Shannon Briggs is not the same as getting rocked by prime Tyson... Though Briggs was better than people now make him out to be.

Edit: can anyone think of a time Lewis was down and took a count? Because it would be interesting to see if Tyson knocked him down, like he did with Razor Ruddock, how recuperative Lewis would be. This is an unknown regarding this mythical match up.

One more thing: Tyson was hard to hit in the early rounds with his head movement...even in the actual fight between the two one could see that lewis had to extend himself to catch Tyson. The longer the fight goes the better Lewis' chances.

Yeah, I think it's a close fight with a slight edge to Tyson. No blowout or domination either way.

[StarshipTrooper]

I think it just comes with the territory mate. Welcome back.

I guess so. The nuthuggery was one of the reasons I left in the first place so let's see how long I put up with it this time around

[billeau2]

Ruddock was susceptible to over hand right hands on top of his head ,this is also why Tyson at 5'10 /5'11 would never land that punch and why a guy like Bone Crusher Smith knocked him down and wobbled him badly . Lets also not forget Tyson knocked Ruddock down with a JAB .

You also have to look at what made Tyson fight at his best is MOTIVATION .Lewis would have certainly done that ,of course the match is not even possibility bc Lewis after the struggle with trying to k.o Billups a washed up journey man had again switched trainers and that lead to a total different puncher in his 20th fight winning the U.K belt against a far better class of fighter trained by A.Dundee wthat resembled an Ali LIKE style and won by quick K.O .This was in 1992 and THIS Lewis was not better than Tyson bc Lewis had to develop longer .

Lewis never showed good recuperating skills ,look at him after his knock downs ,he was rattled somewhat easy at times but thats why a good talent is needed to stay on him and Tyson was a great finisher.

Anyone claims that Tyson CANT defeat Lewis at any point are just fighter fans not fight fans ,big difference .

I can't think of anytime when Lewis was badly hurt and had to recuperate (Im sure it happened and I am forgetting) with ONE big exception...that being the Vitali fight. But that fight showed a lot...Lewis really hung in there and showed great recuperative power actually. Most other times, like when Briggs hit him a few shots, etc Lewis controlled it well.

It is true that both men hit their peak at different times. Effective Tyson would break down bigger opponents that he didn't Ko...Razor Ruddock x2 and Bone Crusher. Not a bad strategy. I would agree with you that to say that Tyson absolutely couldn't defeat Lewis is short sited...on the other hand to say Lewis probably would win is a reasonable opinion, as is the opinion that Tyson would win.

I tend to think Tyson showed skills that make him one of the tougher guys to beat on his good days...ever. Unfortunately his competition does not show this, though he beat some excellent technical fighters and his losses were obviously when he was not the same fighter.

[billeau2]

Yeah, I think it's a close fight with a slight edge to Tyson. No blowout or domination either way.

Apparently if we look at their amateur days and sparring sessions they did battle occasionally...depending on whom narrates one guy did "better" lol. Then again Biggs owned Tyson as an amateur and that didn't do him much good professionally.

[The plunger man]

Lewis was rocked numerous times in EARLY rnd by Briggs , Grant among a few others like Tucker and Bruno both out of primes and even dropped by Akiwande that the ref didnt see and TKO'd against Tyson sparring partner . Ive already went over EVERYTHING AS USUAL ,my post covered the entire topic . Fanboy counter points dont work with me you should know that by now .

You even stated Buster defeated Tyson the same way Holyfield did by his OWN game ??? That would make Tyson aLONG outside jabber and lateral counter puncher ?Tyson also fought Tillis and Green in only his 2nd year as a pro and defeated both easily! You sure you want to engage in COMMON sense with me?

Buster douglas was the puncher in that fight with tyson and took tysons best time and time again ..yes he used movement and boxed tyson but he also consistently bullied him during those 10 rounds and tyson was hurt numerous times in that fight....the point is if you take tysons shots and you fire back he loses heart....ruddock hurt tyson during both there fights , tucker hurt tyson , bruno hurt tyson ....ive told yiu again you again you don't have a clue about boxing ...when ever tyson came up agaisnt a proven hall of famer he lost...the best lennox would beat the best mike tyson 9 out of 10

[The plunger man]

I can't think of anytime when Lewis was badly hurt and had to recuperate (Im sure it happened and I am forgetting) with ONE big exception...that being the Vitali fight. But that fight showed a lot...Lewis really hung in there and showed great recuperative power actually. Most other times, like when Briggs hit him a few shots, etc Lewis controlled it well.

It is true that both men hit their peak at different times. Effective Tyson would break down bigger opponents that he didn't Ko...Razor Ruddock x2 and Bone Crusher. Not a bad strategy. I would agree with you that to say that Tyson absolutely couldn't defeat Lewis is short sited...on the other hand to say Lewis probably would win is a reasonable opinion, as is the opinion that Tyson would win.

I tend to think Tyson showed skills that make him one of the tougher guys to beat on his good days...ever. Unfortunately his competition does not show this, though he beat some excellent technical fighters and his losses were obviously when he was not the same fighter.

look at the competition tyson faced during his reign as a world champion..michael spinks was a lightheavyweight and larry holmes was 36 .....bonecrusher smith was able to hurt tyson and frustrate him for 12 rounds ..bare in mind bonecrusher lost every single round against frank bruno before pulling it out fire in the last round when he faced him....tucker hurt him and took him 12 rounds...as soon as tyson stepped up his competition and met fighters more durable he then showed his limitations.
As for juggers ask him if he thinks anthony joshua would beat mike tyson.....your get an idea what kind of boxing knowledge he really has.
I know we can never prove who would win between lewis and tyson but my money would be on lewis....too big , too long and had knockout power and if faced a more prime tyson he would have dealt with him like he did with david tua

[billeau2]

look at the competition tyson faced during his reign as a world champion..michael spinks was a lightheavyweight and larry holmes was 36 .....bonecrusher smith was able to hurt tyson and frustrate him for 12 rounds ..bare in mind bonecrusher lost every single round against frank bruno before pulling it out fire in the last round when he faced him....tucker hurt him and took him 12 rounds...as soon as tyson stepped up his competition and met fighters more durable he then showed his limitations.
As for juggers ask him if he thinks anthony joshua would beat mike tyson.....your get an idea what kind of boxing knowledge he really has.
I know we can never prove who would win between lewis and tyson but my money would be on lewis....too big , too long and had inockout power and if faced a more prime he would have dealt with him like he did with david tua

Competition is one variable, not a final last word...Spinks was good enough to beat Holmes twice. Tucker was a skilled guy as well... and Bruno was no slouch.

You can't compare Tua to prime Tyson, Tua had no head movement, power in one hand and little to no footwork.

If you want to categorize I don't think anyone would argue (except Sonny lol) that Lewis fought the better comp... Lewis also was incredibly principled: I really respect him for not taking the Ruiz fight to fight Grant, it was typical of him not taking the easy way out.

Tyson studied Dempsey and in film you can see him even using pivots like Jack did to step around...And one thing about that style is it works well against a bigger man. Frazier used a lot of the same tactics BTW.

[The plunger man]

Competition is one variable, not a final last word...Spinks was good enough to beat Holmes twice. Tucker was a skilled guy as well... and Bruno was no slouch.

You can't compare Tua to prime Tyson, Tua had no head movement, power in one hand and little to no footwork.

If you want to categorize I don't think anyone would argue (except Sonny lol) that Lewis fought the better comp... Lewis also was incredibly principled: I really respect him for not taking the Ruiz fight to fight Grant, it was typical of him not taking the easy way out.

Tyson studied Dempsey and in film you can see him even using pivots like Jack did to step around...And one thing about that style is it works well against a bigger man. Frazier used a lot of the same tactics BTW.

Im not comparing tua to tyson...im saying lewis when he was faced with a formidable puncher...he used his size , reach and weight to his advantage and neutralised them and he did that very well....yes it is about competition and who they faced and that's how you access a fighter with the fighters they beat....with spinks yes he beat holmes but he beat holmes one round at a time with his unorthodox movement and punching from all angles with the extra speed he had over an ageing Larry Holmes...tyson was all wrong for him because he had explosive power and speed and a lighter spinks would have no answer to that....tyson's record against medicocre heavyweight challengerss was astounding but when he steppped up he lost an he lost badly...you mention bruno.....now just like you i will disect the difference between the lewis contest and tyson....lewis faced bruno in the middle of october outside at cardiff arms park in wales...that night the outside temparature was very low and lewis needed a blanket in between rounds and he took some getting going...bruno was also a national hero and when theres a fight of this magnitude between two rival fighters then they fight out there skin....as what lewis said i beat the best bruno at my worst...tyson had brunos number .....very static and lacked stamina and they also boxed on tysons home soil
if were gonna go common opponents lets look at ruddock or tucker to see lewis dominated them far easier than tyson did....judging by who tyson beat and who avoided who which was tyson ....he was stripped for not fighting lewis....i cant see how you can even comtemplate tyson beatng lewis with the kind of fighters tyson was knocking over during his reign...take away spinks and holmes and really theres not much to his victorys...lewis should not have been stopped that first fight against mccall he was up at the count of 6 and he should have been given the chance to recover but the ref waived it off and then he was frozen out by don king for 3 years ....lewis IMO beats tyson ...too clever , too big....maybe tyson did study dempesy but that don't mean your gonna have the same ability or heart to match dempsey.....i studied leonard and tried to be like him when i was fighting but i could only dream......you think tyson beats lewis and i respect you and i think lewis wins......if tyson had made the olympics then there was a good chance they could have met but he got beat so we will never know

[juggernaut666]

Apparently if we look at their amateur days and sparring sessions they did battle occasionally...depending on whom narrates one guy did "better" lol. Then again Biggs owned Tyson as an amateur and that didn't do him much good professionally.

Biggs and Ruddock defeated Lewis as amateurs as well. Tysons style didnt suit those Amatuer rules. I highly doubt Lewis would have taken the Tyson fight in those early 90's years,he was not remotley ready for such a pressure fighter go watch any one of his fights prior to his 20th fight he took a long time to develope and without Steward he would not have been as effective.

It would have looked completely different than the Tyson/Ruddock fight bc Tyson would have thrown punches non stop .Had Ruddock taken a break after the Tyson fights or not fought Tyson at all ,we dont know what the Lewis /Ruddock fight would look like or how competitive it would be,the Morrison vs Ruddock fight shows this bc he took 2 years off after the Lewis fight( you dont fight two brutal Tyson fights and be the same) anyone whos taken punches before will know why,ruddock was the ONLY guy to ever go punch for punch with Tyson in his entire career. Even Holyfield stated Ruddock would have been the champion if Tyson wasnt around at that time.

When Lewis fought Morrison he was well refined under steward moreso and thus had a better showing against Morrison than Ruddock did,he also went from the 220's to the 240's in weight,which suited him better style wise under Steward.Ruddock himself was pretty much done after 1991,in a long mostly wasted career of bad management,his last hurrah was with Morrison a fight he almost won in the first round but clearly a better fighter in THAT one bc he threw punches unlike the Lewis fight.