Jack Dempsey as an All Time Heavy?

[Weltschmerz]

I agree with basically this entire list.

I'm sure the feeling is mutual when I say we'd normally be at odds but in this instance it's for the greater good.

It's not that I feel Dempsey doesn't deserve his historical dues, it's just that to consider this guy a top 10 ATG is disrespectful to other boxers who fought the best and much tougher opposition even relative to their era and performed admirably. Why should they take second fiddle to a guy who played dodge'em with the decent opponents of his own time and was ultimately beaten by a smarter boxer?

And don't give me this long count rubbish, Tunney was completely coherent. Dempsey should have read the rules first. He was trying to be a filthy cheat!

Out of curiosity, do you have an all time HW top 10?

[Weltschmerz]

For anybody interested, I found an interesting read on Dempsey,

http://www.boxing.com/jack_dempsey_true_greatness.html

[Weltschmerz]

Quote from the article,

The beauty of boxing is its subjectivity, and none of us ever know if we are right or wrong.

[Elroy1]

I've never placed much stock in "ATG" but I'll give it a quick go, based on accomplishments against the criteria across the ages.

1. Wladimir Klitschko
2. Vitali Klitschko
3. Lennox Lewis
4. Larry Holmes
5. Muhammad Ali
6. Mike Tyson
7. George Foreman
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Rocky Marciano
10. Joe Louis

Just off the top of my head.

I just can't find a top 10 place for Dempsey in terms of ATG by edging out any of these guys. Even H2H aside, which this list isn't even based on, I still can't justify his achievements against his own eras criteria as being greater than what the above achieved.

But this is a personal assessment, as your saying.

[VG_Addict]

I've never placed much stock in "ATG" but I'll give it a quick go, based on accomplishments against the criteria across the ages.

1. Wladimir Klitschko
2. Vitali Klitschko
3. Lennox Lewis
4. Larry Holmes
5. Muhammad Ali
6. Mike Tyson
7. George Foreman
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Rocky Marciano
10. Joe Louis

Just off the top of my head.

I just can't find a top 10 place for Dempsey in terms of ATG by edging out any of these guys. Even H2H aside, which this list isn't even based on, I still can't justify his achievements against his own eras criteria as being greater than what the above achieved.

But this is a personal assessment, as your saying.

Vitali at #2? Just when I thought you couldn't get any dumber. #2 for what? Beating Arreola, Chisora, ancient Briggs, Adamek, and Charr? Getting cut to ribbons by old, fat Lewis?

[Ray Corso]

Numbers 1 & 2 in history? hahahahaha!!!!! That says it all, what a fanatic.

[Elroy1]

Vitali at #2? Just when I thought you couldn't get any dumber. #2 for what? Beating Arreola, Chisora, ancient Briggs, Adamek, and Charr? Getting cut to ribbons by old, fat Lewis?

The only reason I don't rate VK 1 is because I think Wladimir fought more decent opponents over all and Vitali had fewer fights.

The reason I rank VK near the top is..

- Extensive HW career (50+ fights, all 200+)
- He fought the heaviest opposition on record.
- He fought some of the highest quality opposition on record (some of the best HW records, past, present and future champs and many unbeaten contenders).
- He went through this record never suffering a clear loss (both were injury stoppages).
- He went through the list never being behind on points, thus never being outboxed (even in his losses!)
- He never lost more than 2 rounds in any fight
- He has one of the highest KO ratios of any HW and considering quality, the highest.
- He has never been even knocked down let alone out in a professional boxing match.

Anyway this is about Dempsey and not about Klitschko's, so let's keep it on topic. I will argue that subject elsewhere.

LEt's here why Dempsey DESERVES to be rated in the top 10 ATG.

That's the thread right? So far there's been no arguments to justify that.

[Elroy1]

Numbers 1 & 2 in history? hahahahaha!!!!! That says it all, what a fanatic.

Again Ray..

I was asked a question, we can argue elsewhere.

Forget about my views and Klitschko's.

Dempsey? If you think he deserves to be top 10, explain why, like I just did for Vits.

[rightsideup]

Again Ray..

I was asked a question, we can argue elsewhere.

Forget about my views and Klitschko's.

Dempsey? If you think he deserves to be top 10, explain why, like I just did for Vits.

I do not disrespect the klits they are well conditioned pro's but the quality of opposition should be rated on talent, resume and boxing ability not weight. Some of these challenger's are simply overweight. Boxing as a whole is lacking in depth that is why talented fighters now are in there mid 30's and fighting in classes above the natural weight because there skill and talent allows them to.

[Elroy1]

I do not disrespect the klits they are well conditioned pro's but the quality of opposition should be rated on talent, resume and boxing ability not weight. Some of these challenger's are simply overweight. Boxing as a whole is lacking in depth that is why talented fighters now are in there mid 30's and fighting in classes above the natural weight because there skill and talent allows them to.

In absolute terms, weight is one of the single most important aspects in a boxing match. It's conclusive statistically. Therefore all else being equal, a heavier win is a better win. This is less meaningful over a single fight. But over a career it is extremely indicative. Of course this has LESS to do when rating ATG which is against the criteria of the era.

However, one would see clearly that Rocky Marciano, who beat up opponents much larger than himself, is much more stunning than someone like Sonny Liston, who loved to outsize his opponents!

But your right, talent and resume is a priority. Many boxers fight a careers worth of heavy opponents but if they're all bums, that's not quality is it.

But both Klits faced exceptional quality of opposition. They faced guys with much better records and on video they seem much better than previous opponents.

But let's not argue this here, this way my opinion which I used to justify Vitali. If you disagree that's fine. I would like to hear why Dempsey is justifiably an ATG top 10?

Are you telling me that you are not going to use any "size" argument to rate Dempsey?

Are you telling me that you are going to rate Dempsey on "resume", "talent" and "quality of opposition"?