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Old 09-11-2017, 11:37 AM #201
harry-greb harry-greb is offline
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Originally Posted by JK1700 View Post
All of those guys are legends and being a fan of the sport first I love guys like Sugar Ray Robinson, Ali, Leonard, Hagler, Lopez, Whitaker, Roy, I could go on and on and name even more. I still watch those guys regularly now because I really enjoyed seeing them. It's no disrespect to any of them all i'm saying is when I watch Floyd, I feel like he has the most tools and is the most efficient/complete boxer in history. SRR was legendary but didn't have Floyd's defense, same with Leonard and Roy. Meanwhile Whitaker had an amazing defense but didn't have Floyd's offense. There have been great complete fighters before, but there's never been someone who could adjust and adapt to any style and dominate them. Floyd has the best plus-minus of anyone in boxing history and while many legends came before him, none of them were able to dominate the competiton like he did. He's beat almost 30 world champs across 20 years of boxing. That along with him being the most well-rounded boxer ever makes him the GOAT to me. If you're talking legacy that's totally different but skill-wise I can't find anyone who was better.

Ok so Margarito was once considered a good WW, but let's be real NOBODY had heard of him at the time so it made zero sense for Floyd to fight him. Maybe they didn't want to fight him because they suspected he was loading his gloves, which was smart. I wouldn't have fought him either if I knew that, would you? Bottom line he had chances to fight Floyd even after the gloves scandal, but instead he lost every round to Cotto and got stopped. Not to mention Mosley beating him half to death. He blew his chance. All these guys could've fought him, they just had to keep winning. Once you lose, it kills momentum & the fight stops making sense.

As I posted earlier in this thread, Floyd tried to fight Cotto in 2005 and 2006, Bob Arum and Cotto's own trainer said he wasn't ready. He also tried to fight Shane in 1999 and 2006 and Mosley ducked him both times saying he "would rather take a vacation". It's the same deal with Pacquiao. Bob shielded these guys from Floyd because he didn't want his new cash cows to get beat up by a guy who had just said "**** you" and left him. Williams? There was no demand for that fight besides a few super-hardcore fans but he got beat by Martinez and Lara which killed the potential interest. Even then he had a chance to get the fight because he was scheduled to fight Canelo in September 2012 but unfortunately missed his chance due to his accident. If he beat Canelo in 2012 he would've fought Floyd in 2013. It's even the same deal with Hatton, Floyd wanted to fight him after the Tszyu fight and they declined saying they wanted more time. The fight being at 147 actually helped Ricky because he struggled with the weight. Plus the fight got way bigger in those 2 years. There's really no one else, he fought everyone he should have.

I really can't fault his resume at 147 or 154. At 147 he fought all the top guys that weren't being held back by Bob Arum. Then at 154 he fought Oscar De La Hoya (an ATG coming off an impressive win). Miguel Cotto at his most comfortable weight after 3 impressive knockout wins in a row. Then Canelo who hasn't lost since and is probably going to be the future of boxing. Certainly for Mexico and he'll probably be the closest thing we have to a PPV king too. Yeah there's a couple of guys he could've fought but there was no truly great fighter who we wanted to see him fight who he didn't, he beat all of them. It's not like Sugar Ray Leonard, I love the guy but he didn't take on Aaron Pryor or give Hagler an immediate rematch of maybe THE most controversial fight/decision ever, and he's still an ATG.

I respect your post and i'm a huge fan of SRR, got his books, seen all the documentaries etc, but everything evolves and I feel like Floyd has surpassed him as the greatest of all time. Of course you can't compare the amount of fights, and he may have a better "legacy" and be viewed more favorably, but if we're just watching both of them and saying who was better in terms of skills and total attributes across the board, I gotta say Floyd was better. Every aspect of his game was a 9 or 10, and the best IQ/conditioning too. I'm tired after that too
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Jesus Christ, that was longer than my post.
I'll keep mine short because in 10 posts time we'll be writing whole chapters.
Floyd is defence first. Nothing wrong with that.
SRR was offence first. Nothing wrong with that. Well agree to disagree.
Well agree to disagree on the margarito thing too. It was THE fight to make at 147. I was hoping they'd fight in 2006 in or around the zab or baldomir fights. Can't argue with your keep winning line.

De LA hoya was a money fight. Floyd had to take it.
Cotto had suffered two bad beatings, but a good win.(tougher than expected)
Canelo young and slightly green but a very good win

Pryor was offered the fight in 81 after Leonard beat Duran. Multiple sources say it is true including breadman. Not sure about the leonard vs hagler rematch.

I marvel at Floyd's skills but the fighters who jump up from one original weight class to another and take on the top dogs are the men I revere.
Men like Fitzsimmons greb walker Armstrong srr.

Two people who respect each others opinions??? I thought this was a boxing forum/school yard!!
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Old 09-11-2017, 08:05 PM #202
harry-greb harry-greb is offline
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Well Im just saying, that come forward fighters like Chino and Castillo have been dominated by Floyd forever. Idgaf how fresh he was against Chino he had aged. Now I will put the Floyd who faced Canelo at 37, months prior, and he would TKO SRR. Too strong, and aggressive.

And When Floyd fought Castillio he had a bum shoulder from the second round. That isnt an excuse he made up after the fight. Thats something he complained about from the second round. Even the Floyd from the rematch would humiliate SRR. SRR is from the 60's, he's not giving Floyd a tough fight.

But of course if SRR had problems with Lomatta, who is a terrible fighter, its no way he could challenge Floyd.

Even the Floyd from the Chino and Castillio fights, on his worst night, would be too much for SRR.
Hahaha, the comedy club is down the hall!!!
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Old 09-12-2017, 01:29 AM #203
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Originally Posted by harry-greb View Post
Hahaha, the comedy club is down the hall!!!
I dont know what any of this means, but like I say, Floyd from his worst performances, would white wash SRR. SRR is from the 60's. These are mismatch fights....
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:38 PM #204
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I dont know what any of this means, but like I say, Floyd from his worst performances, would white wash SRR. SRR is from the 60's. These are mismatch fights....
It means you're a funny guy.
Floyd might have a chance against the 60's version of the sugar man but the 40's version would murder lil floyd
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:30 PM #205
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Originally Posted by DJ Enerate View Post
I'd have Oscar and Mosley beating Floyd at lightweight. Floyd didn't look great at lightweight. I even pick Ken Buchanan, Ismael Laguna and Carlos Ortiz to run Floyd close at 135. Ike Williams and Duran would fvck Floyd up at 135. Not sure about The great Benny Leonard due to lack of film but according to Ray Arcel Benny was the toughest, most skilled and cleverest fighter he ever trained which is scary because Arcel trained prime Duran.

The great welters who I have no doubt would beat the best of Floyd Mayweather at welterweight are Ray Robinson, Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns, Duran of Montreal vintage, Kid Gavilan and Jose Napoles. The Floyd who turned up vs Maidana would have been absolutely destroyed by all of the above.
I agree with all of that......what about Carmen Basilio?
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:42 PM #206
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top 25 for sure. i'd have to look not only at floyd's record, but every other record of ever other fighter i consider at or around hte top 25 all time. needless to say i have not done this to the degree necessary to truly rate him historically,


and none of you have either.
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:15 PM #207
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Originally Posted by harry-greb View Post
Jesus Christ, that was longer than my post.
I'll keep mine short because in 10 posts time we'll be writing whole chapters.
Floyd is defence first. Nothing wrong with that.
SRR was offence first. Nothing wrong with that. Well agree to disagree.
Well agree to disagree on the margarito thing too. It was THE fight to make at 147. I was hoping they'd fight in 2006 in or around the zab or baldomir fights. Can't argue with your keep winning line.

De LA hoya was a money fight. Floyd had to take it.
Cotto had suffered two bad beatings, but a good win.(tougher than expected)
Canelo young and slightly green but a very good win

Pryor was offered the fight in 81 after Leonard beat Duran. Multiple sources say it is true including breadman. Not sure about the leonard vs hagler rematch.

I marvel at Floyd's skills but the fighters who jump up from one original weight class to another and take on the top dogs are the men I revere.
Men like Fitzsimmons greb walker Armstrong srr.

Two people who respect each others opinions??? I thought this was a boxing forum/school yard!!
Haha. I mean, there's no right or wrong way to box. It's like in any sport you get great defensive teams/great offensive teams. Floyd does think defense first but we've gotta remember he was a monster at 130 then started to have hand problems early on in his career which forced him to change his style. He still gave us a lot of entertaining fights though like Ndou, Corley, Gatti, Judah, Hatton, Mosley, Cotto, Maidana 1 etc. The thing about Margarito was he might've been ranked good, but until he beat Cotto's head in with bricks the general public didn't know who he was. So when you think about that you realise the fight made no sense. Not when Floyd could do record breaking numbers against De La Hoya (Who everyone wanted to see him fight and who was THE biggest cash cow of that era) and Hatton (A fight tons of people demanded which also did great numbers).

I have SRL's book and I admire him a lot but i'll always hold not giving Hagler a rematch against him. He retired then magically came back once Marvin retired, which I thought was disrespectful, but of course he's still a legend and a pioneer. Floyd went through the divisions too and fought top guy after top guy, it's just that he did it so easily we don't give him as much credit. I admire him because I love the art/skill and technique of boxing and in that respect he's incredible to watch. It's not his fault that there was no one in this era who could push him like Hearns/Leonard or Leonard/Hagler but we shouldn't hold that against him because there have been plenty of greats in this era, it's just that he's a step or two above all of them. There's guys like Marquez and Pacquiao (Legendary fighters) and then there's Floyd (One of the GOATS). Who makes legends look second-rate/ordinary.

The way I look at the whole debate is it's like when you play one of those "Fight Night" games. Sure there's guys who hit harder than Floyd and who came along in better eras, but if we're talking all the skills across the board he's gonna be better than everyone else. That's not to say he beats everyone in history, because none of those guys did either, but as an all around boxer he's the most complete. Legacy is totally different because Ali for example is actually bigger than boxing. Floyd will never be loved like Ali/Sugar Ray Leonard/Manny Pacquiao and other guys, but ultimately he's the smartest, most versatile and the most skilled there's ever been.

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Old 09-13-2017, 05:59 PM #208
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Haha. I mean, there's no right or wrong way to box. It's like in any sport you get great defensive teams/great offensive teams. Floyd does think defense first but we've gotta remember he was a monster at 130 then started to have hand problems early on in his career which forced him to change his style. He still gave us a lot of entertaining fights though like Ndou, Corley, Gatti, Judah, Hatton, Mosley, Cotto, Maidana 1 etc. The thing about Margarito was he might've been ranked good, but until he beat Cotto's head in with bricks the general public didn't know who he was. So when you think about that you realise the fight made no sense. Not when Floyd could do record breaking numbers against De La Hoya (Who everyone wanted to see him fight and who was THE biggest cash cow of that era) and Hatton (A fight tons of people demanded which also did great numbers).

I have SRL's book and I admire him a lot but i'll always hold not giving Hagler a rematch against him. He retired then magically came back once Marvin retired, which I thought was disrespectful, but of course he's still a legend and a pioneer. Floyd went through the divisions too and fought top guy after top guy, it's just that he did it so easily we don't give him as much credit. I admire him because I love the art/skill and technique of boxing and in that respect he's incredible to watch. It's not his fault that there was no one in this era who could push him like Hearns/Leonard or Leonard/Hagler but we shouldn't hold that against him because there have been plenty of greats in this era, it's just that he's a step or two above all of them. There's guys like Marquez and Pacquiao (Legendary fighters) and then there's Floyd (One of the GOATS). Who makes legends look second-rate/ordinary.

The way I look at the whole debate is it's like when you play one of those "Fight Night" games. Sure there's guys who hit harder than Floyd and who came along in better eras, but if we're talking all the skills across the board he's gonna be better than everyone else. That's not to say he beats everyone in history, because none of those guys did either, but as an all around boxer he's the most complete. Legacy is totally different because Ali for example is actually bigger than boxing. Floyd will never be loved like Ali/Sugar Ray Leonard/Manny Pacquiao and other guys, but ultimately he's the smartest, most versatile and the most skilled there's ever been.
You're back again!!
I respectfully disagree. At least on the margarito issue. I blame baldomir. If he hadn't beaten zab, then November 2006 would have been open for margarito vs Floyd.

Floyd, pre-oscar took on all comers. Post-oscar he became more of a business man. Maybe he's right. I mean, I won't be there to wipe his arse if he doesn't know his own name.

The pacquiao who demolished cotto in 2010 made Floyd nervous. Now that would have been blood, sweat and tears. Pity it didn't happen. Blame on both sides.
However Duran or mickey walker wouldn't have given two phuks what pacquiao "was on". They would have fought him in his back garden.
Floyd was always just a smidgen too calculating for me.

Hes right up there in terms of skill and smarts and ring IQ.
I'm a huge Floyd fan but his record deserves scrutiny.

U can have the last word
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Old 09-13-2017, 06:36 PM #209
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You're back again!!
I respectfully disagree. At least on the margarito issue. I blame baldomir. If he hadn't beaten zab, then November 2006 would have been open for margarito vs Floyd.

Floyd, pre-oscar took on all comers. Post-oscar he became more of a business man. Maybe he's right. I mean, I won't be there to wipe his arse if he doesn't know his own name.

The pacquiao who demolished cotto in 2010 made Floyd nervous. Now that would have been blood, sweat and tears. Pity it didn't happen. Blame on both sides.
However Duran or mickey walker wouldn't have given two phuks what pacquiao "was on". They would have fought him in his back garden.
Floyd was always just a smidgen too calculating for me.

Hes right up there in terms of skill and smarts and ring IQ.
I'm a huge Floyd fan but his record deserves scrutiny.

U can have the last word
It's a fight that could've happened but it just didn't make sense because Margarito hadn't beaten any names at that point. I didn't really want to see it until Margarito beat Cotto (we know why he beat him) but he lost to Mosley and lost his chance. I don't think it would've been an entertaining fight either since he was flat-footed and slow and Floyd would've seen his punches coming a mile away. That fight instead of Baldomir? It would've basically been the same fight. Plus i'm glad the cheater didn't get paid. He still could've got it, but lost to Shane & Cotto.

I mean of course he was a business man, but at the same time he fought the guys we wanted. We wanted Mosley, got it, Cotto, got it, Canelo, got it, Maidana 1 and 2, got them, Pacquiao got it. He did leave Bob Arum which is why the Cotto and Pacquiao fights didn't happen earlier, but would you want that scumbag/crook handling your career and getting millions of dollars from your hard work? You wouldn't. That's why Pacquiao can't retire and is still fighting, because Bob made way more off his fights than he did. Pacquiao in 2010 was better, but Floyd was better then as well. To me Marquez and Mosley were the last times we saw "prime" Floyd. Manny would've probably done better, but he wouldn't take the test which in no way is Floyd's fault. I think they were both equally past-prime when they did fight so the only difference was it wasn't as exciting as it would've been. Floyd still would have won comfortably, just too smart, skilled. Too versatile as well.

You're right fighters of the past like Duran and Chavez weren't nearly as careful/business smart as Floyd, but that's why Duran is still doing speaking events today because he needs the money. Plus he fought 100 plus times while Floyd did half that and has made hundreds of millions more than anyone else. Of course from a fans perspective we don't look at it like that, but if you were Floyd you would think of yourself first then fans second. It's just like in your ordinary life, would you do a harder job for less money just because someone else wants you to do it? Hell no! Of course not. And yeah I want to see great fights but we need to understand these things. Everyone's record deserves scrutiny, you could even say Sugar Ray Robinson didn't fight Charley Burley or Leonard didn't fight Pryor etc. Even the Top 5 GOATS didn't fight everybody but Floyd fought pretty much everyone we wanted.

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Old 09-13-2017, 07:33 PM #210
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It's a fight that could've happened but it just didn't make sense because Margarito hadn't beaten any names at that point. I didn't really want to see it until Margarito beat Cotto (we know why he beat him) but he lost to Mosley and lost his chance. I don't think it would've been an entertaining fight either since he was flat-footed and slow and Floyd would've seen his punches coming a mile away. That fight instead of Baldomir? It would've basically been the same fight. Plus i'm glad the cheater didn't get paid. He still could've got it, but lost to Shane & Cotto.

I mean of course he was a business man, but at the same time he fought the guys we wanted. We wanted Mosley, got it, Cotto, got it, Canelo, got it, Maidana 1 and 2, got them, Pacquiao got it. He did leave Bob Arum which is why the Cotto and Pacquiao fights didn't happen earlier, but would you want that scumbag/crook handling your career and getting millions of dollars from your hard work? You wouldn't. That's why Pacquiao can't retire and is still fighting, because Bob made way more off his fights than he did. Pacquiao in 2010 was better, but Floyd was better then as well. To me Marquez and Mosley were the last times we saw "prime" Floyd. Manny would've probably done better, but he wouldn't take the test which in no way is Floyd's fault. I think they were both equally past-prime when they did fight so the only difference was it wasn't as exciting as it would've been. Floyd still would have won comfortably, just too smart, skilled. Too versatile as well.

You're right fighters of the past like Duran and Chavez weren't nearly as careful/business smart as Floyd, but that's why Duran is still doing speaking events today because he needs the money. Plus he fought 100 plus times while Floyd did half that and has made hundreds of millions more than anyone else. Of course from a fans perspective we don't look at it like that, but if you were Floyd you would think of yourself first then fans second. It's just like in your ordinary life, would you do a harder job for less money just because someone else wants you to do it? Hell no! Of course not. And yeah I want to see great fights but we need to understand these things. Everyone's record deserves scrutiny, you could even say Sugar Ray Robinson didn't fight Charley Burley or Leonard didn't fight Pryor etc. Even the Top 5 GOATS didn't fight everybody but Floyd fought pretty much everyone we wanted.
Good arguments.
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