Boxing Forum
Navigation
Go Back   Boxing Forum > Boxing Forums > Non Stop Boxing

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-09-2017, 10:37 AM #161
DJ Enerate DJ Enerate is offline
Interim Champion
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 939
Quoted: 456 Post(s)
Rep Power: 3
DJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 108,115.89
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 108,115.89
A tablet for your red k - Isaac Clarke Fuck off - HiLo Rudyo! 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reloaded View Post
It wasn't tougher to win them it was tougher to get a crack at a title, lots of bozos that Floyd would have embarrassed have won world titles back in the day when you really only had WBC WBA.

Name the greats and then I will name guys that beat them that Floyd beats.

You wanna name some fighters that have impeccable resumes and I,ll show you a pink elephant, most guys claim to fame is a couple of big names the rest of the resume is ordinary. People are always talking about prime, what really is prime other than a fans opinion, prime is primarily them at their best, and that can be on one or two nights not necessarily over years. A fighters physical prime is different than his mental prime and it usually transitions from one to the other.

In my honest opinion fans argue irrelevant BS to either prop a guy they like or bag one they don't like, all I know is Floyd Mayweather is judged to a higher standard than all others, that's just because this is his era and he was the best in it and also the dawn of the Internet age where every voice is fact and fact is so bias.
Your points are fair. Prime is not only to do with age. It can be genetic and other factors like how many fights/Wars said fighter's been in (ring wear). A fighter can be in their prime physically but is competing at a weight that takes him out of his prime. Style's as well. Some fighters have styles made for longevity like Floyd's economical approach to boxing. Mental prime is a good point too.

Floyd would definitely beat a lot of the fighters who beat greats. I agree 100%.

Your last paragraph is what gets on my nerves with Floyd fans. They seem to think just because most history buffs and a lot of fans in general don't rate Floyd as a candidate for GOAT or even top ten then it's just hating and Floyd been judged to a higher standard. It's absolutely not. The same could be said for Jimmy Mclarnin who beat more hall of famers than anybody bar Greb and he still doesnt make top ten due to some of those 11 being green, shot or outsized. The bottom line is the greatest fighters Floyd fought in Oscar, Marquez, Mosley and Pacquaio were not at their best and there is no arguments to be made against that. Floyd wasn't in his physical prime for a lot of his best wins either but the fact still remains he never beat even 1 great in their prime and always looked for advantages which I won't get into but you'll no what I mean.

Floyd is not judged to a higher standard generally but there's definitely a case of Floyd fans overlooking factors in some of his best wins and aslo trying to elevate the standard of some of the guys he beat to make his resume seem greater than it actually is. Claiming Corrales and Hatton fit the criteria for being ATG's is an example of such nonsense.
DJ Enerate is offline   Reply With Quote
Advertisements
>>>TO REMOVE THESE ADS, PLEASE REGISTER HERE FOR FREE<<<
Old 09-09-2017, 10:56 AM #162
DJ Enerate DJ Enerate is offline
Interim Champion
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 939
Quoted: 456 Post(s)
Rep Power: 3
DJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 108,115.89
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 108,115.89
A tablet for your red k - Isaac Clarke Fuck off - HiLo Rudyo! 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny2x2x View Post
LOL! Floyd wasn't just picking up meaningless titles. He fought and beat the lineal and undisputed top guys at 130, 135, 147, and 154. He didn't spend enough time at 140, but eventually fought the 140 undisputed champ only at 147 after that guy moved up.

Once again, people need to look at some of the bums guys like Hearns and Duran beat for paper titles. Floyd went to a division and beat the best there, hold the past greats to the same standard.
How great are these lineal and undisputed top guys Floyd beat ?

Name me the bums Duran won paper titles from ? I'm not saying he didn't, I'm just interested to see who you list here.
DJ Enerate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2017, 11:09 AM #163
Johnny2x2x Johnny2x2x is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,353
Quoted: 419 Post(s)
Rep Power: 7
Johnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 10,000,032,304.84
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 10,000,032,304.84
Great poster! - JK1700 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Enerate View Post
How great are these lineal and undisputed top guys Floyd beat ?

Name me the bums Duran won paper titles from ? I'm not saying he didn't, I'm just interested to see who you list here.
Iran Barkley. He caught Hearns and got lucky, but other than that was a journeyman fighter. Dude had literally 1 quality win his entire career and was a punching bag.

Duran is an all time favorite. But if you look at his record the same way people dissect Floyd's answer me this: outside of beating Leonard once, what great fighters did he beat above 135? Sure, he fought several, but lost all of them and then got fat and fought mostly bums and lost to a ton. Again, Duran is one of my favorites, best LW ever, but he wasn't all that great above 135.
Johnny2x2x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2017, 11:58 AM #164
DJ Enerate DJ Enerate is offline
Interim Champion
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 939
Quoted: 456 Post(s)
Rep Power: 3
DJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 108,115.89
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 108,115.89
A tablet for your red k - Isaac Clarke Fuck off - HiLo Rudyo! 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny2x2x View Post
Iran Barkley. He caught Hearns and got lucky, but other than that was a journeyman fighter. Dude had literally 1 quality win his entire career and was a punching bag.

Duran is an all time favorite. But if you look at his record the same way people dissect Floyd's answer me this: outside of beating Leonard once, what great fighters did he beat above 135? Sure, he fought several, but lost all of them and then got fat and fought mostly bums and lost to a ton. Again, Duran is one of my favorites, best LW ever, but he wasn't all that great above 135.
Barkley beat Hearns twice, mate. I'm not saying Barkey's a great or anything close but at his best he was a world class fighter in his era. See this is the thing with Floyd fans they get all salty when it comes to Floyd's opponents being realistically rated as as good as they actually were but resort to calling fighters like Barkley a journeyman and a punching bag. If it was Floyd who had fought and beat The Blade Floyd fans would be elevating The Blade to ATG material and would constantly talk about how Floyd beat him when Hearns couldn't LOL.

Duran beat prime Leonard which is arguably the single greatest win in boxing history. It's the only great he beat above 135 but it's some win considering he was above his prime weight and considering how brilliant Leonard was. The rest of your point regarding Duran above 135 is spot on. He wasn't as dedicated to training, got fat between fights and spent most camps cutting weight. He lost to guys Floyd would toy with. Even the version who beat Mcgregor would toy with some of the guys Duran lost to. Duran still managed to get his **** together for certain fights and beat a much bigger formidable guy in Iran Barkley against the odds. Even Davie Moore was the hot favourite against Duran after knocking out Ayube Kalule two fights previous. I know Duran lost against Hagler but that was a special performance from Duran even though he clearly lost. He was up on the cards after 12 (I don't agree with that btw) but gassed in the last 3. Hagler was in his absolute prime and Duran was the first to take him 15 rounds in a title fight. Duran managed to compete with Hagler through sheer grit, skill and ring craft and nothing much else as he was way past best and hugely outsized by Hagler. Hagler said he earned his PhD in boxing after fighting Duran. That's respect.

Last edited by DJ Enerate; 09-09-2017 at 12:27 PM.
DJ Enerate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2017, 12:06 PM #165
Scary Scary is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,470
Quoted: 376 Post(s)
Rep Power: 16
Scary has a reputation beyond reputeScary has a reputation beyond reputeScary has a reputation beyond reputeScary has a reputation beyond reputeScary has a reputation beyond reputeScary has a reputation beyond reputeScary has a reputation beyond reputeScary has a reputation beyond reputeScary has a reputation beyond reputeScary has a reputation beyond reputeScary has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 10,111,006,513,156.89
Bank: 610,520,266,611,652.00
Total Points: 620,631,273,124,808.88
Default

Top 5 somewhere probably.
Scary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2017, 12:20 PM #166
Johnny2x2x Johnny2x2x is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,353
Quoted: 419 Post(s)
Rep Power: 7
Johnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny2x2x has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 10,000,032,304.84
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 10,000,032,304.84
Great poster! - JK1700 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Enerate View Post
Barkley beat Hearns twice, mate. I'm not saying Barkey's a great or anything close but at his best he was a world class fighter in his era. See this is the thing with Floyd fans they get all salty when it comes to Floyd's opponents being realistically rated as as good as they actually were but resort to calling fighters like Barkley a journeyman and a punching bag. If it was Floyd who had fought and beat The Blade Floyd fans would be elevating The Blade to ATG material and would constantly talk about how Floyd beat him when Hearns couldn't LOL.

Duran beat prime Leonard which is arguably the single greatest win in boxing history. It's the only great he beat above 135 but it's some win considering he was above his prime weight and considering how brilliant Leonard was. The rest of your point regarding Duran above 135 is spot on. He wasn't as dedicated to training, got fat between fights and spent most camps cutting weight. He lost to guys Floyd would toy with. Even the version who beat Mcgregor would toy with some of the guys Duran lost to. Duran still managed to get his **** together for certain fights and beat a much bigger formidable guy in Iran Barkley against the odds. Even Davie Moore was the hot favourite against Duran after knocking out Ayube Kalule two fights previous. I know Duran lost against Hagler but that was a special performance from Duran even though he clearly lost. He was up on the cards after 12 (I don't agree with that btw) but gassed in the last 3. Hagler was in his prime and Duran was the first to take him 15 rounds in a title fight. Hagler said he earned his PhD in boxing after fighting Duran. That's respect.
Forgot Barkley also won a SD over Hearns at LHW.

Not saying Duran wasn't great, he obviously was and I have him all time top 5. All I'm saying is that if you start dissecting his record with the same criticality people do with Mayweather, you see some warts. He wasn't all that great when he moved up in weight. That's how this little discussion started, people saying Floyd moving up in weight and winning titles wasn't as big of a deal as guys who did it before.
Johnny2x2x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2017, 12:53 PM #167
DJ Enerate DJ Enerate is offline
Interim Champion
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 939
Quoted: 456 Post(s)
Rep Power: 3
DJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond reputeDJ Enerate has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 108,115.89
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 108,115.89
A tablet for your red k - Isaac Clarke Fuck off - HiLo Rudyo! 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny2x2x View Post
Forgot Barkley also won a SD over Hearns at LHW.

Not saying Duran wasn't great, he obviously was and I have him all time top 5. All I'm saying is that if you start dissecting his record with the same criticality people do with Mayweather, you see some warts. He wasn't all that great when he moved up in weight. That's how this little discussion started, people saying Floyd moving up in weight and winning titles wasn't as big of a deal as guys who did it before.
I never said that Floyd moving up in weight to fight bigger guys isnt impressive. It's just the quality that isn't their and the important prime win over a great to have him top 10 all time. And Duran does get his record dissected with the same criticality as Floyd. The thing is Duran had already cemented his legacy as the greatest lightweight of all time before he moved up to produce arguably the single greatest win in history over prime Ray Leonard. He also dared to be great by fighting prime Hagler, Benitez and Hearns at their optimal weights. The rest of Durans wins past Leonard are just bonus points really. The Moore win was impressive and the Barkley win was impressive due to both fights being against the odds and due to both fights being against much bigger men. If Floyd had beat a huge middleweight like Barkley even for a paper belt Floyd fans would be jizzing in their pants over the win. Barkley was huge, man. He won a world super middleweight title and fought for light heavyweight titles. He even fought at heavyweight. Duran dropped him and beat him in a war. G level performance from Duran. Duran also looked like **** in some of his fights post 135 and rightly gets a lot of stick for it. As he does for No Mas.

Last edited by DJ Enerate; 09-09-2017 at 01:02 PM.
DJ Enerate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2017, 06:14 PM #168
harry-greb harry-greb is offline
Contender
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 109
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Rep Power: 1
harry-greb is on a distinguished road
Points: 3,304.76
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 3,304.76
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny31 View Post
I always say the same. For talent...top 10 probably top 5.

For achievements - top 20. He has huge depth to his resume, but to me he doesn't have those one or two special wins against prime HOF/ATG's on his resume, and that has to count against him in such an argument. He needed a killer or two at their very best. He just missed the window with a prime Oscar or Shane and that whole welterweight era.

Had he fought and beat Winky at 154lbs when it was mooted (around 2006 I believe) then that would have been a win which I would classify as one of those special one's. Obviously Pac in 2009-2010 is a big miss.

For those fanboys who like getting their panties in a twist - I am not blaming Floyd for any of the above fights not happening nor do I give a ****. I am just saying that they didn't happen and for the purposes of Floyd's legacy, it would have put him further up in my opinion had they happened, or happened when those fighters were in their prime.
Spot on mate.
He'd have one serious resume if he had a prime margarito, Paul Williams and winky on it

Last edited by harry-greb; 09-09-2017 at 08:24 PM.
harry-greb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2017, 08:17 PM #169
harry-greb harry-greb is offline
Contender
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 109
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Rep Power: 1
harry-greb is on a distinguished road
Points: 3,304.76
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 3,304.76
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MurkaMan View Post
Exactly. And like I say, I think I would beat up Ray Robinson myself. He was trash, but back then it was the greatest you had at that time. I know they had less belts and weight classes back then, so the road traveled was far more challenging.

But Im just saying that the talent, specifically, is on a completely different level. Wasnt no Rigo's, Crawford's, Loma's, or Ward's running around back then.

But Floyd specifically put pieces together that even those fighters named, havent figured out. He was too consistent, but they got room to grow. I can imagine a younger Floyd losing, in an alternative universe.
You're smoking some serious sh1t. Floyd needed two fights to see off chino maidana!!!

If sugar ray robinson fought twice a year he'd be unbeaten til he was a hundred years old
harry-greb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2017, 08:41 PM #170
harry-greb harry-greb is offline
Contender
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 109
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Rep Power: 1
harry-greb is on a distinguished road
Points: 3,304.76
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 3,304.76
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by koolkc107 View Post
Yeah, because they are either too green, over the hill, or never was the goods AFTER Floyd makes them look like sparring partners.

But what is prime?

Coralles beat Castillo, Casameyor, and Freitas AFTER he lost to Floyd.

Mosely was coming off an annihilation of Floyd boogie man Cheato.

Castillo became lineal lightweight champ AFTER Floyd beat him twice.

Zab Judah fought for belts 5 times AFTER Floyd beat him.

Hatton defended his lineal light welterweight titles twice after Floyd beat him.

JMM knocked Pac cold 3 years AFTER he fought Floyd.

Cotto has won titles in two different weight classes AFTER his fight with Floyd.

Canelo had two belts and a Ring belt before Floyd and has won belts in two different weight classes AFTER his fight with Floyd.


How, exactly, are we defining "prime"?

When I hear folks pull out that BS hateration about prime it indicates either ignorance or an agenda.

Floyd fought and beat elite competition, and did so throughout his entire career.

Period.
Good argument.
He's an all time great.
Imagine if he beat a prime margarito, Paul Williams and winky.
Throw in kosta tszyu and he's top 5
harry-greb is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share This With Friends

Tags
floyd, list?, rate

User Tag List

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump


 

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:53 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.