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Ben Carson shuts down the liberal media...because he's right

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  • "The answer is that Nordic countries prospered in spite of the Scandinavian model, not because of it. The Scandinavian welfare state has simply never worked."




    No way, Norway!

    OCTOBER 16, 2015Carmen Elena Dorobăț
    TAGS Free MarketsTaxes and SpendingAustrian Economics Overview

    The Economist discussed recently the necessary ‘devolution’ of the Scandinavian model in Norway, following similar trends in Sweden and Denmark. The article makes several good points about the effects of bureaucratization and high-tax welfare on entrepreneurship and corporate culture in a country where the government owns 40% of the stock market and employs 33% of the workforce (almost double the percentage in OECD countries). With the drop in oil prices precipitating economic decline, Norwegians have recently voted for higher spending and no reform. But, as The Economist suggests, better long-term measures are those implemented by Sweden, which shrunk its state by “allowing private firms to run its schools, hospitals and surgeries, and reducing its tax burden.”

    The discussion, however, relies on a premise too often heard and always wrong, that this change is needed despite the fact that “for decades this unusual economic model has served Norway well.” Many get the causal relationship wrong, connecting the appearance of a prosperous economy with the high taxes and government spending which happen to take place at the same time. As Mises explained, however, the latter type of policies amount to nothing more than capital consumption:

    It may sometimes be expedient for a man to heat the stove with his furniture. But if he does, he should know what the remoter effects will be. He should not delude himself by believing that he has discovered a wonderful new method of heating his premises (Mises 1998, 650).


    The long-run consequences of a welfare state are always a decline in prosperity leading to impoverishment, but their outward symptoms may often be misleading, if the market, while hampered, remains powerful enough to weather the taxes and still progress. Even if one inconspicuously burns only one piece of furniture every year, it does not mean the model is working, but only that the reveal of its inadequacy is postponed.

    It is therefore crucial to inquire whether these models are working not by comparing static pictures of an economy, but by looking at its counterfactual evolution. How prosperous would Norway have been had it not created a huge welfare state atop a well-functioning free market? How prosperous would Sweden or Denmark have been if they hadn’t slowly consumed from or impeded more capital accumulation in the past decades?

    The answer is that Nordic countries prospered in spite of the Scandinavian model, not because of it. The Scandinavian welfare state has simply never worked.

    https://mises.org/blog/no-way-norway

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Enayze View Post
      I was referencing Norway, not Denmark. In anycase as a master of economics I am sure you are familiar with Norways Petroleum fund.

      http://www.nbim.no/en/
      http://abcnews.go.com/Business/norwe...ry?id=21488085




      The argument wasn't if they were or were not the same thing. The argument was that wealth inequality skewed the per capita income of both Singapore and Denmark, so when it comes to your average citizen they both make roughly the same. Again it is tough to measure low income and poverty level wages of Denmark and Singapore because neither country has a minimum wage.



      Norway's Petroleum Investment Fund is the largest in the world, worth close to a trillion dollars. If Norwegians have a model for success, this fund is definitely a good example. The petroleum fund earns more money than Norway spends, and yes the government can spend up to 4% of the value (not income) of that fund. To put it in perspective then, Norway can take out anywhere from $35-40 Billion dollars a year to subsidize health and education for their population of 5 million. In crude terms that 4% means Norway can give $8,000 a year to every single citizen, and still have money left over.



      What do you mean they don't have much less money? Norwegians have roughly 25% less money after taxes, and all of their goods are anywhere from 25%-50% more expensive, which in real terms would make them about 50-60% poorer than your average American after they finished grocery shopping and getting their car fixed.
      According to the better life index, Americans income rating is 10/10, Norway's is 3.9/10. In the United States, the average household net-adjusted disposable income per capita is USD 41 355 a year, In Norway the average household net-adjusted disposable income per capita is USD 33 492 a year.

      http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/c...united-states/




      Obviously I know where you are coming from, and I would love for healthcare and tuition to be taken care of for me and my family, but not at the expense of becoming twice as poor, and having the costs of goods significantly increase where I can't even afford a nice night out at dinner with the lady without breaking the bank.
      In a perfect world, the healthcare system should be relegated to each state to do as the people wish, and then whichever system works best will undoubtedly be adopted by the rest of the country.
      As for tuition, government needs to stop subsidizing loans which then allows colleges to jack up the price of tuition to whatever they want.
      Pretty funny to see that Bernie Sanders wingnut dismiss Norway's oil revenue completely as "only 4% doe." You adjust that 4% to our population and you get a figure of over 2.1 trillion dollars, over 3 times what we spend on our military. Insignificant doe.

      Then they'll bring up Denmark as a good "socialist" model. Denmark, which (along with Canada and Australia) actually has a more free economy (read more capitalist) than the US. Insignificant doe.

      http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

      Kids these days.

      Comment


      • Bernie doesn't have a chance. I mean yea maybe he could get the nomination. But he would NEVER win the presidency. Hillary vilifying republicans and their "sympathizers" as if they are this small demographic and how they are ruining the country because they aren't giving in to the democrats is ridiculous. Of course she's addressing what she perceived as a largely pro-democrat base that the whole country wants this extending government bureaucracy but in reality the republicans are stone walling Obama because the citizens behind them are not for this cr@p. Believe it or not, most Americans don't want to turn everything upside down and reinvent the essence of society because it's the progressive thing to do.
        Oh yeah this was pretty funny whether you agree with it or not. I mean if Carson is a coward that's unfit to be president then......

        We need a strong leader- and fast!

        A video posted by Donald J. Trump (@realdonaldtrump) on


        Comment


        • Originally posted by Jim Jeffries View Post
          Well it certainly caught me by surprise, especially the part about Church of Norway clergy being state employees. It was my understanding that most northern Europeans had given up religion altogether.

          Had hoped to visit Norway when I was stationed in Germany, but I never made it past Copenhagen and that was a very short visit after a long, fast drive. Picked up a couple of hitchhikers that looked like women from a distance at about 220 Km/hr. Turns out it was a couple of college students coming back from Ireland. Guy and a girl. Ended up staying with them and a few more students, saved me a hotel.
          "Looked like women"

          Yes priests and other church employees are on a government payroll but as a taxpayer you can decide whether you want to pay church tax or not. It's not as if religion has any significans at all though.

          Personally I pay the tax, but not because I'm religious, because I am not, but I like the churches and have no problem paying for their preservation. Most of the churches are very old.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Enayze View Post
            I was referencing Norway, not Denmark. In anycase as a master of economics I am sure you are familiar with Norways Petroleum fund.

            [url]http://www.nbim.no/en/[/url


            .
            Oh absolutely. It would have been an unpleasant news to me if the danes welfare system was financed by natural ressources.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Jim Jeffries View Post
              Pretty funny to see that Bernie Sanders wingnut dismiss Norway's oil revenue completely as "only 4% doe." You adjust that 4% to our population and you get a figure of over 2.1 trillion dollars, over 3 times what we spend on our military. Insignificant doe.

              Then they'll bring up Denmark as a good "socialist" model. Denmark, which (along with Canada and Australia) actually has a more free economy (read more capitalist) than the US. Insignificant doe.

              http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

              Kids these days.
              lol, look at you get all excited. Pretty cute.

              What your reading comprehension has failed to make clear to you is that 4% is the maximum they can spend. They don't actually spend 4%. Now, in recent years, they've had a conservative government which wants to lower taxes, so they have increased from their usual spending closer to or less than 2% to about 3%. Still a sizable chunk of money, for sure, but this is with a government in place that is dedicated to lowering taxes. In fact, in the past there have often been talks about limiting the maximum use at 2%.

              The point is, though, that all of these Scandinavian countries pay less per capita on health care than we do (as do all other countries with single-payer systems. The idea that we can't afford to pay less for something is ridiculous. The only real arguments conservatives come up with that could feasibly have some basis in reality are that said system would be somehow inferior to the current one (longer waits, lower quality care, etc), not that we couldn't afford it.
              Last edited by samouraď; 10-17-2015, 11:52 AM.

              Comment


              • I think Dr. Ben Carson would make a great vice president. He does speak from the heart and doesn't rely on political talking points to get his point across.

                Unlike the majority of the campaigners, he and Trump don't sound scripted and people have picked up in that.

                .

                Comment


                • Authenticity is fine, and a refreshing change from the usual fake, robotic BS you get from politicians, and this time around in Trump, Carson, and Sanders America certainly has plenty of authenticity to choose from. However, that alone shouldn't be enough to win an election. Rhetoric doesn't bring about change, or improve living standards, policy does.
                  I was in the US recently and watched a lot of the coverage, and it seemed like the media was more interested in the funds the candidates had raised, rather than their policies. Honestly, if I was American I'd have no idea who to vote for.

                  Comment


                  • It's not as hard of a decision as you'd imagine. The same characters are emerging again -- the ones that voted for Bush twice only to turn against him in the end and then voted for McCain. Oh I trust they know what they're doing. Now they're talking about Hillary carries to much baggage so they're backing the Chump. I think he's going to get trounced but hey America has elected an entertainer once before.

                    Comment


                    • That entertainer was governor of the largest state in the nation before running for CINC. Understand that. You are comparing apples with asteroids.

                      Moreover,

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