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Old 09-23-2019, 03:36 PM #101
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Originally Posted by The Old LefHook View Post

The type of grace we are talking about really began with Robinson, which is one reason he is held in such high regard--he was the first. Even Willie Pep did not move with the flowing grace a dancer like RobinsonI
- -Pep known as the master of combining offense with seamless defense whereas Robby was pure offense.

OK, we get you can't dance or figure. It's OK.
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Old 09-23-2019, 04:12 PM #102
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It is difficult to supplant traditions already firmly in place, or even to share their ancient flower beds. Extreme motivation and luck required. You are the expert on martial history. Fighting only with arms is rare in martial history, isn't it? Boxing must seem a tad retrogressive to cultures with strong hand to hand traditions already. Imagine being told your opponent will strike at you with arms only, or being recruited for the sport in your native land. White men recruited for the sun dance would have balked too.

Of course then there is the racial aspect of it, which will get you tagged a racist for even discussing it, by bloated bŭggery. One alarming possibility is: Asians are not built for it.

Not built for what, did you say? Repeated buffeting, head punches, then, sir. Jaw and skull may be poorly designed for absorbing repeated blows. The anatomy of the races varies in small but significant degree in many fine aspects, jaw and skull attachment being but one.

Brazil's lethargy with regard to the manly art of self defense is certainly cultural. For one, she has another way of kicking ašs in the street and in the gym which is clearly superior. Since most countries' established native or transplanted martial art defeats a boxer heads up almost every time, why bother with pũssy boxing at all?

Popo was Brazillian, and they got well positioned behind him. Ahem! For in their squalid favelas they love their celebrity news, and will get behind anyone famous. And that's a fact, by basking bŭggery.
Anthropology with a medical degree places particular importance on the development of the Jaw, the Maxilla and Mandible are perhaps the best indication of sturdiness, bone and even muscular development. By buggery do you know the indication they use for this assesment? Apparently the proteins we eat and where they come from literally form a hierarchy as to our physical development. It turns out that those groups that are near the sea develop the most bone density which is judged by the development of the jaw. Sea proteins are simply the best for development... Then comes meat and dairy, and finally inferior sources that do not promote much density.

I have no problem with anyone using race, as long as if they do not mind when I bring these inconvenient truths to bare...By Buggery! and by Horsery! Horsery and Buggery!!

Your right about combat Lefty. I just don't know exactly if we can call that a racial thing. Lets take the Chinese. Chinese martial arts inchoate were probably 95% used to develop the body, often compensating for poor nutrition. Holding positions, slow deliberate movements initially, making the body strong enough to then endure contact with no breaking of the bones. Yet, when we go to the ryuki Islands, and Japan, suddenly the martial arts become more combat specific initially, more linear, more akin to boxing in many respects, different in many more. The Native people in these regions were sturdy and the Chinese expats became sturdy because of the access to better food choices. I say this because Japan is made up of native people and Chinese Genetics.

If you look at martial arts in the South pacific, you see a similar thing. More contact more straight vectors of force because the people had access to foods that were high in protein, sea proteins, particularly.

Basically there are two ways to deal with generating, defending against force: One can act linear, or circular to dissopate. When we see a Cobra, which is one big muscle, and a Mongoose, which is light and fast, we see how these vectors work. The snake wants to get there as fast as it can, It will not attempt to strike from an angle, or circle, it uses speed, so it can bring to bare force. the Mongoose, on the other hand will wait and circle around the attack to defeat the bigger, stronger, snake.

Chinese martial arts are culturally not into a lot of contact, even a linear system like Hsin Yi does not want to come to grips, and a lot of the boxing systems are angular, circular. This even includes Chinese grappling Shua Jiao which has many similarities to Judo, but prefers the throws to the mat work.

Other smaller people also have these indicators: South East Asian arts tend to enter in at angles, the arts use triangular vectors to create and dissopate force. But here is the thing: when we come to modernity, and people are subject to the same variables, there does not seem to be a racial component that determines people's choices. Chinese San Da is MMA really.


The attributes we think are racially construed, seem to me to be reflected in race to a degree, but hardly caused by race. There may be correlation but causality? I don't see it. But then again I am Part Polish and you know what they say about Pollacks and seeing things....
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Old 09-23-2019, 08:03 PM #103
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- -Doubtful about "Chinese" genetics prevailing in the Japanese who as early as Marco Polo remained shrouded in mystery as a closed martial society.

Certainly in such a land mass before the advent of a powerful state there was a mixing of sorts of the myriad tribes as the hunters had to stay on the move, but Leffy stereotyping black and white physiotype with the ham handed notions of race to apply to boxing just don't fly.
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Old 09-23-2019, 08:54 PM #104
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Now that I have clearly established the basic parameters, and they have been certified by QB's very rejection of them, let me elucidate further. There is no stronger recommendation than his rejection and no worse publicity than his recommendation.

Ol' Johnny Tapia seemed to have some fast twitch fibers in him. Or was it something else ol' Johnny had in him, like jumping juice or power powder? Were his traces of flow artificial?
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:18 AM #105
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Originally Posted by billeau2 View Post
Anthropology with a medical degree places particular importance on the development of the Jaw, the Maxilla and Mandible are perhaps the best indication of sturdiness, bone and even muscular development. By buggery do you know the indication they use for this assesment? Apparently the proteins we eat and where they come from literally form a hierarchy as to our physical development. It turns out that those groups that are near the sea develop the most bone density which is judged by the development of the jaw. Sea proteins are simply the best for development... Then comes meat and dairy, and finally inferior sources that do not promote much density.

I have no problem with anyone using race, as long as if they do not mind when I bring these inconvenient truths to bare...By Buggery! and by Horsery! Horsery and Buggery!!

Your right about combat Lefty. I just don't know exactly if we can call that a racial thing. Lets take the Chinese. Chinese martial arts inchoate were probably 95% used to develop the body, often compensating for poor nutrition. Holding positions, slow deliberate movements initially, making the body strong enough to then endure contact with no breaking of the bones. Yet, when we go to the ryuki Islands, and Japan, suddenly the martial arts become more combat specific initially, more linear, more akin to boxing in many respects, different in many more. The Native people in these regions were sturdy and the Chinese expats became sturdy because of the access to better food choices. I say this because Japan is made up of native people and Chinese Genetics.

If you look at martial arts in the South pacific, you see a similar thing. More contact more straight vectors of force because the people had access to foods that were high in protein, sea proteins, particularly.

Basically there are two ways to deal with generating, defending against force: One can act linear, or circular to dissopate. When we see a Cobra, which is one big muscle, and a Mongoose, which is light and fast, we see how these vectors work. The snake wants to get there as fast as it can, It will not attempt to strike from an angle, or circle, it uses speed, so it can bring to bare force. the Mongoose, on the other hand will wait and circle around the attack to defeat the bigger, stronger, snake.

Chinese martial arts are culturally not into a lot of contact, even a linear system like Hsin Yi does not want to come to grips, and a lot of the boxing systems are angular, circular. This even includes Chinese grappling Shua Jiao which has many similarities to Judo, but prefers the throws to the mat work.

Other smaller people also have these indicators: South East Asian arts tend to enter in at angles, the arts use triangular vectors to create and dissopate force. But here is the thing: when we come to modernity, and people are subject to the same variables, there does not seem to be a racial component that determines people's choices. Chinese San Da is MMA really.


The attributes we think are racially construed, seem to me to be reflected in race to a degree, but hardly caused by race. There may be correlation but causality? I don't see it. But then again I am Part Polish and you know what they say about Pollacks and seeing things....
That's all very interesting.

I would however state, from my experience Wrestling, that Mongolian and Chinese wrestling were always held in high-esteem.
It doesn't make for great movies, like Kung Fu.

I am sure, anywhere you go in the world, you'll find bang-up Wrestling systems.

And the smaller and hungrier the guys, the fiercer the match.
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I'm not saying genetics doesn't matter. I'm not really disagreeing with you at all. But my opinion is that people are more similar than they are different. It's really the circumstances they're coming from that matter most.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:27 AM #106
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There have been plenty of fast twitch white boxers at the lower weights. What doesn't seem to happen is heavier guys who still have that twitchy speed. White guys just ain't got that.
You normally say really dumb things. In fact, everytime you post you illicit a weird reaction that is both cringe and laughter.

that being said, this is fairly true. Clearly, guys like Usyk and Fury have plenty of fast-twitch muscle fibers. But really, Blacks tend to "top out" much heavier than Whites, and Whites much higher than Asians.

You don't see a harada at 160 pounds. You don't see a Greb at 210 pounds.

Look at MMA: the Black champions have been at the bookends. Aldo is the only Blackguy to be a consistent/dominant champion in the meaningful divisions (we saw how that went when he met MCgegor). And there's never been a Black champion at Lightweight: MMA's most talent-laden division, by far.

Black fighters get exposed at Heavier weights, too. But there's less Whites competing there, so it's less likely to happen.

It's also true that Whites tend to fill the most important positions in sports: Quarterback, Pitcher, anything meaningful in soccer. But how much skill do you need to play in the NBA? Do you really need to know the rules? Just be big and bounce, and you're good: do Whites even make up 20% of the Pro's?

A lot of it comes down to survival. Once man left Africa, he couldn't keep being prey, he had to become predator. Predators can't just be big and fast... that only works when you're in numbers.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:32 AM #107
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Next on the agenda, true observations of course, the thing I specialize in.

Quite true that whites do not have the fast twitch fibers of blacks. But there is something else the white boys lack that the black boys often have--flow and grace--pretty rhythm.

Hardly any white blows have black flow & grace. Even the ones with high coordination such as Tunney do not have beautiful flow & grace to go with it. Their rhythm is jerky and not flowing. Tunney gets the job done well. However, he does not look flowing and beautiful doing it, he just looks very efficient.

The type of grace we are talking about really began with Robinson, which is one reason he is held in such high regard--he was the first. Even Willie Pep did not move with the flowing grace a dancer like Robinson did. In his day no one moved as pretty as Robinson. The white boys were efficient but not beautiful. You will not find a single fighter who moved like Robinson before he did. Yes, when you change the game that much you will stay famous and revered.

Many things were just beginning with Robinson, and he was the one beginning them. He knew how to showboat, but not that entertainingly, for even black showboatery was in its infancy. To our eyes now Robinson looks like a comic hack trying to showboat out there. He did not have that bit down yet. Look at the mediocre showboatery in his exhibition with Willie Pepe. No one else was doing that at all at the time. Innovator, Sugar Ray.
Maybe only talk about fighters you've watched?

COuld you even describe Willie Pep to us?

He famously stated he didn't like hurting other fighters, that's why he opted not to punch. Robinson, for all his size and fire-power, settled into completely unnecessary slug-fests. He looked more like Foreman than Ali (as people like to imagine Ali, at least). He even suffered hot flashes in a fight he was running away with because he made ineffecient use of movement.


Can you name a Black guy as smooth as Sanchez? He basically won on riddim. How about St. Pierre?

How many left hooks did Tunney get dropped by?

The grace you're talking about works when your opponent lacks timing, control of distance, and coordination. Ask Anderson Silva what happens when you finally face a guy who has those things... even just a little bit. Ask him how well steroids help you then, too.
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Old 09-24-2019, 02:00 PM #108
billeau2 billeau2 is offline
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That's all very interesting.

I would however state, from my experience Wrestling, that Mongolian and Chinese wrestling were always held in high-esteem.
It doesn't make for great movies, like Kung Fu.

I am sure, anywhere you go in the world, you'll find bang-up Wrestling systems.

And the smaller and hungrier the guys, the fiercer the match.
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I'm not saying genetics doesn't matter. I'm not really disagreeing with you at all. But my opinion is that people are more similar than they are different. It's really the circumstances they're coming from that matter most.
I agree. The genetics, if one can site them, come from the continued exposure to a particular environment and Darwin's laws. There is a reason we don't all open up the back of our microwaves and wrap the wires with aluminum foil as we are getting cooked by the oven (a Darwin Award Winner did so while on the phone with a customer service agent begging her to unplug the microwave at once!!!). It is the same reason why people exposed to a protein source will show the affects and adapt certain predispositions. The Northern Chinese Arts that were more towards Bejing were not practiced by Northern, Muslims and look a lot different because people did not develop the build/strength to wrestle well.

Per the wrestling: Two different groups with one common denominator: Northern location. Most of the best Chinese Wrestlers are Muslims that eat a lot of lamb, an excellent root source of protein. The Mongols, as a ****genius society, have a strong wrestling tradition and are indeed, a particularly robust people. They eat a lot of meat, it is most of their diet. The art Shua Jioa I mentioned, had a guy who was considered one of the best fighters in the world...He was a Northern Chinese Muslim, a sturdy fellow who was strong as an ox.
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Old 09-24-2019, 02:06 PM #109
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- -Doubtful about "Chinese" genetics prevailing in the Japanese who as early as Marco Polo remained shrouded in mystery as a closed martial society.

Certainly in such a land mass before the advent of a powerful state there was a mixing of sorts of the myriad tribes as the hunters had to stay on the move, but Leffy stereotyping black and white physiotype with the ham handed notions of race to apply to boxing just don't fly.
It goes much longer back. The Chinese ethnic genotype(s) has travelled and established community in other parts of Asia. The Innue (sp?) are not genetically related to what people would describe as a Japanese Person and they are of course, the indigenious Japanese. Most would attribute this to long standing migrations from China to the Islands surrounding her.

This goes beyond the socialization of Japan where the aristocracy first developed in the Heine court from Chinese cultural imports and teachings (before the Samurai) Chinese expats probably were coming over when the Berring straits was still connected lol.
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Old 09-24-2019, 03:44 PM #110
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I was being a bit tongue in cheek. I do know Iran was considered a very tough hombre and that his sister allegedlly could fight very well and was known for such.

In New York City it seems there is always someone tougher, crazier... In my hood the farthest I ever saw the crazy chain extend was to a guy known as Crazy Alex... A thin guy with a Southern drawl, who allegedly had a container of Explosive Nitro above his bed on a bookshelf and who was...well "crazy!!" Crazy of course was a compliment in the hood. If someone thought you were tough they might try to test you, but crazy? If Crazy enough at least? People actually thought twice. I am sure that there were quiet guys, back from Vietnam (I knew a few of them)...guys that did not say much to anyone, who were more crazy than Alex. A scary thought!

Im thinking that with Iran it was a similar situation, even regarding Green. Those were some rough projects and that gang (The Black Spades) were known even in Harlem along with the Cassanovas, the Cosacks (a Borican motorcyle gang in East Harlem) and many others.
That's truly amazing! I can understand the Vietnam thing, had an uncle that came back not quite the same according to my brother.
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