What factors caused both Robinson and Lamotta to recieve delayed title shots

[rightsideup]

I have read that robinson was demanding high purse's and promoter's thought he would be even more demanding as champ thus denied him a shot and lammota would not align himself with carbo. any other thoughts ?

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Honestly for Srr, it was racism... That era was controlled by the mafia and certain ethnic/nationalities were given preference over some minorities. Srr own fighter of the year in 1941 I believe but didn't get a crack at a title for a few more years even though he was winning all the time... That's why I don't give huge props to Barney Ross, mcclarin etc from that era because it was a very protective era for certain champion fighters.. How can u be a rampaging fighter of the year but have to wait years for a title shot...

As for Lamotta, he just was connected to the right people early in his career and probably wasn't hyped up early in his career and had to fight his way to the top, and do some favors for the mob before he got his crack at a title

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Honestly for Srr, it was racism... That era was controlled by the mafia and certain ethnic/nationalities were given preference over some minorities. Srr own fighter of the year in 1941 I believe but didn't get a crack at a title for a few more years even though he was winning all the time... That's why I don't give huge props to Barney Ross, mcclarin etc from that era because it was a very protective era for certain champion fighters.. How can u be a rampaging fighter of the year but have to wait years for a title shot...

As for Lamotta, he just was connected to the right people early in his career and probably wasn't hyped up early in his career and had to fight his way to the top, and do some favors for the mob before he got his crack at a title

[Humean]

Honestly for Srr, it was racism... That era was controlled by the mafia and certain ethnic/nationalities were given preference over some minorities. Srr own fighter of the year in 1941 I believe but didn't get a crack at a title for a few more years even though he was winning all the time... That's why I don't give huge props to Barney Ross, mcclarin etc from that era because it was a very protective era for certain champion fighters.. How can u be a rampaging fighter of the year but have to wait years for a title shot...

As for Lamotta, he just was connected to the right people early in his career and probably wasn't hyped up early in his career and had to fight his way to the top, and do some favors for the mob before he got his crack at a title

There are elements of truth in that but the biggest reason, particularly for Robinson, was the Second World War. The belts (welterweight & middleweight) were frozen from 1941 to 1946. Robinson turned pro end of 1940 and LaMotta early 1941. They both hit the stage where they could be fighting for the title when the belts were frozen. Freddie 'Red' Cochrane, who was one of the very worst welterweight champions, became the champion in 1941 by defeating Fritzie Zivic and made his first and only (unsuccessful) defence of it against Marty Servo in 1946. The middleweight champion was Tony Zale who won it (both NBA & NYSAC, he had the NBA from 1940) against Abrams in 1941 and made his first defence as the unified champion in 1946 against Graziano. The belts were frozen because both Cochrane and Zale served in the war and couldn't defend their titles

Now why Servo and Graziano got the fights rather than Robinson and LaMotta in 1946 is down primarily to 'connections'. Servo was managed by Al Weill, who would go on to manage Marciano behind the scenes whilst also being the matchmaker for the IBC at Madison Square Garden from 1949-1952. Weill was controlled by Frankie Carbo. Graziano was the quintessential mobbed up fighter, Ettore Coco, who would briefly become boss of the Lucchese crime family in the 1960s owned a large piece of Graziano. Robinson got his title shot later in the year of 1946 after Servo had his nose badly damaged in a non-title fight against Graziano, so Robinson didn't have to wait long, therefore the war was really the main reason Robinson took as long as he did to become champion. LaMotta's 'connections' weren't right until he made a deal and threw the fight with Fox in 1947 but had to wait further because of the fall-out (LaMotta got a suspension from NYSAC) from the bad job he made of it.

The reason I say there is an element of truth in what you say is that to a certain extent 'connections' could always come down to ethnicity and race and race and ethnicity was still a factor in terms of what the white audiences wanted to see. However in the 1940s exciting black fighters could be very popular with fight fans because of the excitement they brought. For example Beau Jack was very popular at the Garden and appeared there 21 times. Guys like Holman Williams and Charley Burley didn't get the shot they deserved due to a combination of the war and that they were considered boring. In Burley's case he also changed managers many times although i'm not sure the exact reasons for all those changes.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

There are elements of truth in that but the biggest reason, particularly for Robinson, was the Second World War. The belts (welterweight & middleweight) were frozen from 1941 to 1946. Robinson turned pro end of 1940 and LaMotta early 1941. They both hit the stage where they could be fighting for the title when the belts were frozen. Freddie 'Red' Cochrane, who was one of the very worst welterweight champions, became the champion in 1941 by defeating Fritzie Zivic and made his first and only (unsuccessful) defence of it against Marty Servo in 1946. The middleweight champion was Tony Zale who won it (both NBA & NYSAC, he had the NBA from 1940) against Abrams in 1941 and made his first defence as the unified champion in 1946 against Graziano. The belts were frozen because both Cochrane and Zale served in the war and couldn't defend their titles

Now why Servo and Graziano got the fights rather than Robinson and LaMotta in 1946 is down primarily to 'connections'. Servo was managed by Al Weill, who would go on to manage Marciano behind the scenes whilst also being the matchmaker for the IBC at Madison Square Garden from 1949-1952. Weill was controlled by Frankie Carbo. Graziano was the quintessential mobbed up fighter, Ettore Coco, who would briefly become boss of the Lucchese crime family in the 1960s owned a large piece of Graziano. Robinson got his title shot later in the year of 1946 after Servo had his nose badly damaged in a non-title fight against Graziano, so Robinson didn't have to wait long, therefore the war was really the main reason Robinson took as long as he did to become champion. LaMotta's 'connections' weren't right until he made a deal and threw the fight with Fox in 1947 but had to wait further because of the fall-out (LaMotta got a suspension from NYSAC) from the bad job he made of it.

The reason I say there is an element of truth in what you say is that to a certain extent 'connections' could always come down to ethnicity and race and race and ethnicity was still a factor in terms of what the white audiences wanted to see. However in the 1940s exciting black fighters could be very popular with fight fans because of the excitement they brought. For example Beau Jack was very popular at the Garden and appeared there 21 times. Guys like Holman Williams and Charley Burley didn't get the shot they deserved due to a combination of the war and that they were considered boring. In Burley's case he also changed managers many times although i'm not sure the exact reasons for all those changes.

I was really drunk when i wrote my first post,,,, It was after the tim-manny fight at like 3 in the morning, so i apoligize if it seems i ramble...

[rightsideup]

There are elements of truth in that but the biggest reason, particularly for Robinson, was the Second World War. The belts (welterweight & middleweight) were frozen from 1941 to 1946. Robinson turned pro end of 1940 and LaMotta early 1941. They both hit the stage where they could be fighting for the title when the belts were frozen. Freddie 'Red' Cochrane, who was one of the very worst welterweight champions, became the champion in 1941 by defeating Fritzie Zivic and made his first and only (unsuccessful) defence of it against Marty Servo in 1946. The middleweight champion was Tony Zale who won it (both NBA & NYSAC, he had the NBA from 1940) against Abrams in 1941 and made his first defence as the unified champion in 1946 against Graziano. The belts were frozen because both Cochrane and Zale served in the war and couldn't defend their titles

Now why Servo and Graziano got the fights rather than Robinson and LaMotta in 1946 is down primarily to 'connections'. Servo was managed by Al Weill, who would go on to manage Marciano behind the scenes whilst also being the matchmaker for the IBC at Madison Square Garden from 1949-1952. Weill was controlled by Frankie Carbo. Graziano was the quintessential mobbed up fighter, Ettore Coco, who would briefly become boss of the Lucchese crime family in the 1960s owned a large piece of Graziano. Robinson got his title shot later in the year of 1946 after Servo had his nose badly damaged in a non-title fight against Graziano, so Robinson didn't have to wait long, therefore the war was really the main reason Robinson took as long as he did to become champion. LaMotta's 'connections' weren't right until he made a deal and threw the fight with Fox in 1947 but had to wait further because of the fall-out (LaMotta got a suspension from NYSAC) from the bad job he made of it.

The reason I say there is an element of truth in what you say is that to a certain extent 'connections' could always come down to ethnicity and race and race and ethnicity was still a factor in terms of what the white audiences wanted to see. However in the 1940s exciting black fighters could be very popular with fight fans because of the excitement they brought. For example Beau Jack was very popular at the Garden and appeared there 21 times. Guys like Holman Williams and Charley Burley didn't get the shot they deserved due to a combination of the war and that they were considered boring. In Burley's case he also changed managers many times although i'm not sure the exact reasons for all those changes.

thanks for the info

[#1Assassin]

two excellent posts but to add one obvious fact that was left out, they were just too damn good for their own good. robinson in particular, he is recognized by most as the GOAT for a reason and needless to say the man could fight and then some. lamotta was just a ****ing savage, people werent too keen on throwing their champions in the ring with him either.

if the war or the color of robinsons skin can give you yet another reason not to make it happen, any opposing manager would take it for all its worth and never look back.