ISIS Behead David Haines

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

[QUOTE]

I was merely stating the relationship between Islams first pillar; submission to one God and intention/interpretation.

See it how you will or believe what you may; I am NOT condoning the acts committed by these so called 'Muslims'. I'd rather not respond by dissecting your post(s) and vice versa as I really do not have the time. I come on these forums as I commonly enjoy the sport of boxing as all users of this forum. I commented due to the lack of knowledge in relation to mainstream Islam in this thread and the perception given by a minority.

So your defense is an attack on us for being "ignorant" yet you refuse to answer the simple question I posed to you in my last post.

Islam, Judaism and Christianity have been a fundamental part of history and have influenced humanity over 1400 years as you clearly state. Based on the notion that the Quran is a book of violence, either one of these religious books can be seen in the same light. Faith is not belief without proof, but trust without reservation. The same trust any believer would bestow in his God is the same he puts in his followers. The concept of freewill is universal throughout each of these religions and the choice between right and wrong is ours to make. A religion should not be blamed for the shortcomings of its followers.

I never said the Quran is a book of violence, I said it contains violence. It also contains some universal morals and truths that I don't need Allah to tell me.

As I also said before which you also ignored is I don't judge a religion by it's followers, I judge it by it's teachings.

Free will is another argument all together.

I am at peace with myself. I am in no way a practising Muslim nor am I preaching the faith. Live and let live. Your faith is between you and your God. Just don't insult something that has been discussed, debated, practised, preached and written about for 1400 years without any definitive end or conclusion - not just talking of Islam here.

I am actually stating that I choose to agree to disagree with mainstream Islam (can people not see that?) regarding practising our faith and implementing its teachings in this time and period. Unless you live in caves of course...

The problem is that the same people who beheaded those American and British journalist, would not hesitate to behead you because you choose not to be a practicing Muslim.

They don't agree with your interpretation of the Quran, and woul deven consider you an enemy to Islam. So again I will ask for the 3rd time now...

How do you determine that your interpretation of Islam is the right one?

[B0XXING FAN]

So your defense is an attack on us for being "ignorant" yet you refuse to answer the simple question I posed to you in my last post.

I am not defending, debating or whatever you have so much time to draft and write.

There are tens of interpretations. These interpretations have enormous different impacts on all these values. Today, the world makes the mistake of accepting and dealing with an extremely hard line interpretation of Islam, as if it were the only possible representative of Islam.

While scholars realize that such a harsh interpretation of Islam prevails only because of the unlimited financial resources that stand behind it and continue to mark it and advocate it in societies that have been made most vulnerable by dictatorships and corruption, the world must know that Wahhabi Islam is the only sect that (based on oil wealth)[the wealthy terrorists as you call them] is capable of building hundreds of Islamic centers around the world***8212;centers that advocate the most aggressive, isolated and harsh interpretation of Islam. These centers also recruit people to preach values that are totally contradictory to civilized societies***8217; value systems. Wahhabi Islam that monopolizes the representation of Islam advocates what is in total a clash with human rights, women***8217;s rights and the values of coexistence.

I personally think that Islam could be presented in a way that is compatible with all the values of modern, civilized societies. Nonetheless, this depends on who represents Islam and the Muslims.The challenge today is that the world (supported by the moderate Muslims) must not allow a single sect to claim ownership of absolute reality. It is an imperative step, however it is a rather difficult one. The Wahhabi institution with billions of dollars has been proactively playing on the theater for more than half a century. The agony is that they have been doing it in a patent clear manner for decades. Their education curricula over the past 50 years are the evidence of the crime they have been committing against humanity, Islam, and the Muslims for a long while. The world must have noticed, Europe and the USA must have noticed, and finally the UN must have noticed that a number of those countries have been spreading the seeds of fanaticism, violence, and a culture of hate via their educational programs in a manner that can only produce the most dangerous terrorists.

So Muslims all share the responsibility of letting one school of thinking (a very extreme one) become the role model of Islam. The advocates of this model, most unfortunately, enjoyed the availability of unlimited financial resources, and managed meanwhile to establish a global network which enabled them to nearly negate the presence and role of any moderate interpretation of Islam such as the interpretation which prevailed for centuries in Turkey, Egypt and the Levant region. The marginalization of moderate interpretations of Islam was easy to realize in societies that witnessed an overall collapse of standards, with their autocracies and military juntas.

In my opinion one could say that yes, Islam could be compatible with values of modernity and progress. Yet this depends on who represents Islam: who (for instance) will be talking about the status of women, the status of minorities***8212;being Jews, Christians or others***8212;and coexistence in a problematic area such as the Middle East.

The core of the current challenge is to change the following picture: the hard-line Islamic group financed by endless resources spreading via cultural centers and schools its harsh interpretation of Islam, building hundreds of mosques everywhere and recruiting hard-line preachers. In parallel, the many moderate Islamic schools of thinking are being ignored and marginalized. This is the picture that ought to be changed if we want Muslims to live in peace with others on the face of earth.

There are Muslims who could surprise you with open views on equality, diversity, coexistence, pluralism, modernity and human rights. The members of such open and moderate schools would enable you to see what happened in the history of the Muslim societies that enabled the clergy to convert Muslims to caravans of followers and deprive them from the use, benefits, and dynamics of the critical mind.

I never said the Quran is a book of violence, I said it contains violence. It also contains some universal morals and truths that I don't need Allah to tell me.

Every religous book could be interpreted to 'contain violoence'. Allow the nitpicking dude seriously!

As I also said before which you also ignored is I don't judge a religion by it's followers, I judge it by it's teachings.

Free will is another argument all together.

You judge it by the misinterpretations of its teachings and how they are followed by those who also misinterpret. If you really were someone seeking a realistic portrayal of the Islamic religion, you wouldn't focus on a minority who hold extremist beliefs. Its like extremist Christian cults representing mainstream Christianity - doesn't make sense does it? Unless of course you really are adamant upon proving your point whether it be wrong or right.

The problem is that the same people who beheaded those American and British journalist, would not hesitate to behead you because you choose not to be a practicing Muslim.

EXACTLY! So i'll break down the whole objective of my post in the most simple way i can. AND WHAT? Does it look like i care if these Extremists would want me dead for what i believe? I denounce and distance myself from such extremist views but that isn't enough for someone like you - you want me to insult, abuse and offend not just Islam, but the concept of religion. Not going to happen .

How do you determine that your interpretation of Islam is the right one?

Read above. if you still struggle to see the answer, allow the public posts displaying comebacks for anything i write. I am so over that period in my life when people over the internet think they can win an arguement with having the last word. Kinda reminds me of this

[Spartacus Sully]

I am not defending, debating or whatever you have so much time to draft and write.

There are tens of interpretations. These interpretations have enormous different impacts on all these values. Today, the world makes the mistake of accepting and dealing with an extremely hard line interpretation of Islam, as if it were the only possible representative of Islam.

While scholars realize that such a harsh interpretation of Islam prevails only because of the unlimited financial resources that stand behind it and continue to mark it and advocate it in societies that have been made most vulnerable by dictatorships and corruption, the world must know that Wahhabi Islam is the only sect that (based on oil wealth)[the wealthy terrorists as you call them] is capable of building hundreds of Islamic centers around the world***8212;centers that advocate the most aggressive, isolated and harsh interpretation of Islam. These centers also recruit people to preach values that are totally contradictory to civilized societies***8217; value systems. Wahhabi Islam that monopolizes the representation of Islam advocates what is in total a clash with human rights, women***8217;s rights and the values of coexistence.

I personally think that Islam could be presented in a way that is compatible with all the values of modern, civilized societies. Nonetheless, this depends on who represents Islam and the Muslims.The challenge today is that the world (supported by the moderate Muslims) must not allow a single sect to claim ownership of absolute reality. It is an imperative step, however it is a rather difficult one. The Wahhabi institution with billions of dollars has been proactively playing on the theater for more than half a century. The agony is that they have been doing it in a patent clear manner for decades. Their education curricula over the past 50 years are the evidence of the crime they have been committing against humanity, Islam, and the Muslims for a long while. The world must have noticed, Europe and the USA must have noticed, and finally the UN must have noticed that a number of those countries have been spreading the seeds of fanaticism, violence, and a culture of hate via their educational programs in a manner that can only produce the most dangerous terrorists.

So Muslims all share the responsibility of letting one school of thinking (a very extreme one) become the role model of Islam. The advocates of this model, most unfortunately, enjoyed the availability of unlimited financial resources, and managed meanwhile to establish a global network which enabled them to nearly negate the presence and role of any moderate interpretation of Islam such as the interpretation which prevailed for centuries in Turkey, Egypt and the Levant region. The marginalization of moderate interpretations of Islam was easy to realize in societies that witnessed an overall collapse of standards, with their autocracies and military juntas.

In my opinion one could say that yes, Islam could be compatible with values of modernity and progress. Yet this depends on who represents Islam: who (for instance) will be talking about the status of women, the status of minorities***8212;being Jews, Christians or others***8212;and coexistence in a problematic area such as the Middle East.

The core of the current challenge is to change the following picture: the hard-line Islamic group financed by endless resources spreading via cultural centers and schools its harsh interpretation of Islam, building hundreds of mosques everywhere and recruiting hard-line preachers. In parallel, the many moderate Islamic schools of thinking are being ignored and marginalized. This is the picture that ought to be changed if we want Muslims to live in peace with others on the face of earth.

There are Muslims who could surprise you with open views on equality, diversity, coexistence, pluralism, modernity and human rights. The members of such open and moderate schools would enable you to see what happened in the history of the Muslim societies that enabled the clergy to convert Muslims to caravans of followers and deprive them from the use, benefits, and dynamics of the critical mind.



Every religous book could be interpreted to 'contain violoence'. Allow the nitpicking dude seriously!



You judge it by the misinterpretations of its teachings and how they are followed by those who also misinterpret. If you really were someone seeking a realistic portrayal of the Islamic religion, you wouldn't focus on a minority who hold extremist beliefs. Its like extremist Christian cults representing mainstream Christianity - doesn't make sense does it? Unless of course you really are adamant upon proving your point whether it be wrong or right.



EXACTLY! So i'll break down the whole objective of my post in the most simple way i can. AND WHAT? Does it look like i care if these Extremists would want me dead for what i believe? I denounce and distance myself from such extremist views but that isn't enough for someone like you - you want me to insult, abuse and offend not just Islam, but the concept of religion. Not going to happen .



Read above. if you still struggle to see the answer, allow the public posts displaying comebacks for anything i write. I am so over that period in my life when people over the internet think they can win an arguement with having the last word. Kinda reminds me of this

Might Makes Right.

History Goes to the Winners.

Those of a religion who are willing to slaughter, oppress, and enslave will always win out as the true religion as one is less willing to question the truth of those who inspire fear than those who inspire love.

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

[QUOTE]

I am not defending, debating or whatever you have so much time to draft and write.

We are having a discussion, relax and stop being so defensive.

In my opinion one could say that yes, Islam could be compatible with values of modernity and progress. Yet this depends on who represents Islam: who (for instance) will be talking about the status of women, the status of minorities***8212;being Jews, Christians or others***8212;and coexistence in a problematic area such as the Middle East.

I agree, but once again Islam has a serious PR problem. There are Muslims that I agree with and think should be the representatives of the faith. Men like Maajid Nawaz who I love listening to, and I think has the right intentions. I just think he and many like him, are facing the same problem you are. The image of Islam is not a good one in the west, because there is no defining authority within Islam the way there is in Christianity for example. So Imams all around the world, can proclaim their interpretation of the faith as the "correct" one and not be challenged.

The core of the current challenge is to change the following picture: the hard-line Islamic group financed by endless resources spreading via cultural centers and schools its harsh interpretation of Islam, building hundreds of mosques everywhere and recruiting hard-line preachers. In parallel, the many moderate Islamic schools of thinking are being ignored and marginalized. This is the picture that ought to be changed if we want Muslims to live in peace with others on the face of earth.

Yes but again, interpretation lies as a barrier to that. As long as you have violent scriptures in the Quran, you will have people adhering to them.

There are Muslims who could surprise you with open views on equality, diversity, coexistence, pluralism, modernity and human rights. The members of such open and moderate schools would enable you to see what happened in the history of the Muslim societies that enabled the clergy to convert Muslims to caravans of followers and deprive them from the use, benefits, and dynamics of the critical mind.

The don't surprise me, as I stated above I'm a big fan of Maajid Nawaz and I'm an atheist. It's just too bad men like him are far and few between in the Islamic faith.

Every religous book could be interpreted to 'contain violoence'. Allow the nitpicking dude seriously!

That's not a nitpick, the Quran and Hadiths have CLEAR commands to violence, it's not interpretation it's there and it's in black and white.

You judge it by the misinterpretations of its teachings and how they are followed by those who also misinterpret. If you really were someone seeking a realistic portrayal of the Islamic religion, you wouldn't focus on a minority who hold extremist beliefs. Its like extremist Christian cults representing mainstream Christianity - doesn't make sense does it? Unless of course you really are adamant upon proving your point whether it be wrong or right.

Again, I don't judge a faith by it's followers, I judge it by it's teachings. Christ was a pacifist, his teachings involved peace, love, giving of your money and belongings to people that are more needy. Mohameds teachings were far from that, the Quran is not a completely peaceful religion, sorry but it's not. There are clear Surahs that command you to violence, to kill unbelievers, and the goal of Islam even in the most moderate mind is a world wide Islamic Caliphate. Muslims believe that Islam will rule the earth one day, that is a fundamental belief in Islam.

EXACTLY! So i'll break down the whole objective of my post in the most simple way i can. AND WHAT? Does it look like i care if these Extremists would want me dead for what i believe? I denounce and distance myself from such extremist views but that isn't enough for someone like you - you want me to insult, abuse and offend not just Islam, but the concept of religion. Not going to happen .

I don't want you to do anything like that, what I would love to see is Muslims like you to stand up PUBLICLY and push these extremists out of your communities, to be a louder voice than they are. To dismiss the violence in the Quran and reform Islam the way Christianity was reformed.

See Christianity went through this in the 15th century, Islam has yet to have this transformation. Islam needs more people like you to change it, to not take the Quran literally, and to accept democracy and freedom over what the Quran teaches.

Christians used to travel the world murdering millions in the name of Christ, that stopped because of democratic values, Islam needs the same thing. A separation of Mosque and State. Marginalizing the religion as a personal thing, and not wanting your constitution to be the Quran or wanting to rule under Sharia law.