If Tyson had come back like Ali would he have been the undisputed GOAT?

[Sugarj]

Douglas fought a great technical fight that night. He dominated Tyson. It's a stretch to believe any Tyson beats that fighter that night.

IF Tyson came back to regain the true championship and in process showed the determination, mental toughness and will to win of an ATG against the best opposition he certainly would be ranked higher than he is today. Certainly top five.

It certainly was a beautiful display of boxing by Douglas. Terrific movement and combinations.

But for all Douglas's brilliance, anyone familiar with Tyson's career had to notice how below form he was. We'd seen the technical skills slowly erode from after the Spinks fight onwards. The lack of jab, combinations, head movement. But in this fight Tyson also lacked his usual pace and early rounds venom. It was simply a bad night against a superb opponent. Tucker, Thomas or Ruddick may well have beaten 'that' Tyson too.

At the end of the day the worst Tyson to date nearly fluked a one punch KO. I think an on form Tyson would have probably beaten that Douglas.....but we'll never know!

[OctoberRed]

It certainly was a beautiful display of boxing by Douglas. Terrific movement and combinations.

But for all Douglas's brilliance, anyone familiar with Tyson's career had to notice how below form he was. We'd seen the technical skills slowly erode from after the Spinks fight onwards. The lack of jab, combinations, head movement. But in this fight Tyson also lacked his usual pace and early rounds venom. It was simply a bad night against a superb opponent. Tucker, Thomas or Ruddick may well have beaten 'that' Tyson too.

At the end of the day the worst Tyson to date nearly fluked a one punch KO. I think an on form Tyson would have probably beaten that Douglas.....but we'll never know!

10 years after that Tyson would have blasted Douglas

[Joe Beamish]

It's a stretch to say Tyson could have come back and been great after prison. The very nature of his unique talent was radically different from that of most fighters, including Ali.

His strength was dependent on being youthful, hyper-focused and explosive. He was a smart, informed, inspired fighter in his way. But he was never a wise maneuverer, never like an Ali who could out-think his opponent, crawl into their heads in some cerebral way and operate on long-delayed gratification, waiting out what the other guy can deliver and finding a way to stay on top at the last bell even when you're past your physical prime.

I think Tyson in '87-'88 was indeed one of the greatest fighters of all time. But that kind of movement and explosive intensity, at that weight, wasn't going to last long, prison or no prison.

[JAB5239]

I was in Tokyo in 1990 when Douglas got his long count and beat Tyson. I knew a lot of sluts then, and know some knew ones now.
Tyson was ****ing the **** outta Japanese wimmin, he wasn’t training much, but he was clubbing and pounding poon.

He wasn’t in his right mind when Douglas beat him.

Can't blame anything on Douglas. If Tyson didn't take the fight seriously that's on him. Fighters have won and lost throughout history. Tyson had time to prepare. If he didn't....it's nobody else is fault. Douglas was on a mission that day. There was no long count. Would he have won had Mike been in shape and focused? That's anyone's guess. That doesn't shoot Douglas up in history, even though I wouldn't argue your point. But it certainly hurts Tyson's standing as a 44-1 favorite. It is what it is.

[QueensburyRules]

I think you are missing essential points:

Ali wasn’t idle in prison, but Tyson was!

Ali stood up against the Vietnam War, and being drafted to kill oppressed peoples.

Tyson, spent his time in prison, for a rape many feel he didn’t commit.

Very different situations. Ali was later praised for his decisions, and Tyson was vilified for his.

I think these are important points to consider.

--- I'll second your points and add some others.

Ali always had a loyal cadre of legendary team members like Dundee, Bundini, and Ferdie whereas Givens and King got their fangs into Tyson to convince him to ditch the surviving half of the greatest HOF team ever.

So Tyson only had a collection of clowns, was only fighting to generate $$$$ and had to train and fight on strong, experimental psychotropic drugs.

[QueensburyRules]

I think you are missing essential points:

Ali wasn’t idle in prison, but Tyson was!

Ali stood up against the Vietnam War, and being drafted to kill oppressed peoples.

Tyson, spent his time in prison, for a rape many feel he didn’t commit.

Very different situations. Ali was later praised for his decisions, and Tyson was vilified for his.

I think these are important points to consider.

--- I'll second your points and add some others.

Ali always had a loyal cadre of legendary team members like Dundee, Bundini, and Ferdie whereas Givens and King got their fangs into Tyson to convince him to ditch the surviving half of the greatest HOF team ever.

So Tyson only had a collection of rotating clowns, was only fighting to generate $$$$ and had to train and fight on strong, experimental psychotropic drugs.

[JAB5239]

I seem to recall a scene in the Michael J White Tyson film (which is pretty good) which alludes to this as well.

Full credit to Douglas, he boxed beautifully and showed heart in getting up from a very nasty uppercut. But that version of Mike bore no comparison (technical or otherwise) to the guy who met Berbick, Holmes, Biggs or Spinks.

Fair play to Tyson, he looked pretty sharp again against Tilman, Stewart and Ruddock after Douglas. His technical skills had slipped, but his pace and conditioning indicated that his passion had returned.

He never seemed the same to me after he lost to Douglas. I feel like we all wanted that air of invincibility back, but something was missing. I'm not saying he wasn't still a great fighter, but that aura and desire has diminished if not disappeared. He talked the talk and looked the part, but once he was in the ring....he seemed vulnerable. Maybe because we (me) built him up so high. I just didn't see the same fire.

[JAB5239]

It's a stretch to say Tyson could have come back and been great after prison. The very nature of his unique talent was radically different from that of most fighters, including Ali.

His strength was dependent on being youthful, hyper-focused and explosive. He was a smart, informed, inspired fighter in his way. But he was never a wise maneuverer, never like an Ali who could out-think his opponent, crawl into their heads in some cerebral way and operate on long-delayed gratification, waiting out what the other guy can deliver and finding a way to stay on top at the last bell even when you're past your physical prime.

I think Tyson in '87-'88 was indeed one of the greatest fighters of all time. But that kind of movement and explosive intensity, at that weight, wasn't going to last long, prison or no prison.

Great post. At his best he was damn near unbeatable. But he was never the type of guy to maintain that focus. Had he he may have been in the discussion of the 3 or 4 heavyweights. At least based on skills, talented and ferocity.

[QueensburyRules]

--- he was a drugged out face fort zombie against Douglas.

Anyone who knew human behavior knew he was in the slowmo train wreck phase of life that saw him bilked of at least $300 Mil.

In spite of all that with Buster illegally blasting him every other break, he still blasted out Buster with a Hail Mary shot, an easy ko in a fairly contested match just like his hero Dempsy had done to Tunney.

[JAB5239]

--- he was a drugged out face fort zombie against Douglas.

Anyone who knew human behavior knew he was in the slowmo train wreck phase of life that saw him bilked of at least $300 Mil.

In spite of all that with Buster illegally blasting him every other break, he still blasted out Buster with a Hail Mary shot, an easy ko in a fairly contested match just like his hero Dempsy had done to Tunney.

Didn't looked drugged out during the staredown. And even with the knockdown, Douglas looked completely composed. Not sure what you're talking about Douglas illegally hitting him. Tyson was not only the favorite, but the tan favorite. Buster was never the better fighter, but he was definitely the better man on that night.