Pac & Clottey's effected the merit of some of Floyd's top wins

[Kris Silver]

I'll start by saying I think Mayweathers a great fighter and I have a lot of respect for him in the ring. I'm not a hater but I've been thinking about this somewhat recently.

To whatever extent...the underdog that was Pacqauio, a more natural LW ish fighter far less used to fighting at 147 has made Floyd's win over ODL look far less impressive.

Mayweather had fought at 140 and above 5 times before he faced ODL, 3 of those at 147 itself. Pacquaio had never been above 140, or really cited as likely to really perform that well at such a weight. He has less also in terms of height and reach advantage not to mention some other thought of short comings that lead to him being an underdog against ODL.

Yet only a year and a half after Floyd just got a SD over ODL, Pacquaio's first time at such a high weight and he was able to completely dominate ODL. This raises to whatever extent, some questions about just how good Mayweather's win over ODL was, and why he couldn't do with more ease what Pacman did. I know ODL was nowhere near as impressive against Pac, but a lot of it was Pac too. What if ODL got the nod against PBF, and then Pacquaio immediately went on to dominate him like that, imagine the question marks then!?!


Furthermore, Mayweather got a UD win over Judah, not only did Cotto manage to TKO him a year later, but more recently Clottey a relatively less well favoured WW has beaten him aswell.


I'm not flaming on Mayweather as I think he's a great fighter I really do. But this really does pose natural questions as to some of Floyd's good-top wins.

Why wasn't he able to despatch of these guys far easier?

[krispy kreme]

Mayweather beat Judah in the later rounds more soundly. Cotto and Clottey beat him up and stopped him or would have had the fight stopped. To me Cotto & Clottey are very big welterweights coming in above 147 and they are physically stronger than Mayweather. I just think their style's are more crude and rough, too much for Zab to handle.

For Pacquaio, he fought DLH at 147, and DLH came in 145 on fight night. When DLH fought Floyd they were at 154 (not sure about the unofficial weigh-in). I just think DLH was more weight drained and didn't have anymore fight left in him. And Pacquiao style was just different to Mayweather's; he used more lateral movement and didn't get caught on the ropes.

All in all, I just think style wise, Mayweather couldn't take Zab or DLH out because of his pure boxing style. Although, he was beating Zab badly before the low blow.

[Bushbaby]

Joshua Clottey is the most underrated welterweight elite there is!I think he beats Cotto and Margarito in the rematch!

[Dan...]

I gotta massively disagree Kris, not that that is unusual.

Firstly the Oscar issue. You gotta understand that the Oscar Floyd fought was a completely different beast to the one that took on Manny. I love Manny and am not trying to take anything away from his win, but that was not a healthy De la Hoya. Floyd went and fought Oscar at 154 pounds the fight after he absolutely destroyed Mayorga. Oscar was fully hydrated for that fight and at his physical peak. He was stronger, faster, more active, had better reflexes. Also, it shouldn't have been a SD. Floyd clearly won at least 7 and potentially 8 rounds. I believe that Oscar would have beaten Manny at 154.

The Judah win. Judah is a notoriously quick starter and he looked better in the first 3 or 4 rounds of his fight against Floyd than potentially any fight throughout his career. But Floyd systematically wore him down and absolutely punished him towards the end of the fight. He didn't really commit himself to going for the stoppage, but he probably could have achieved it if need be.

The thing is, all the talk about Mayweather at 140 and up distorts the fact that he was an incredible 130 pounder. I don't think I have ever seen anyone looks so good at that weight, and that includes Arguello who is one of my all time favourites. The fights against Hernandez, Chavez and Corrales - wow, just wow. He is the best fighter ever to fight at 130 pounds IMO. Then, he moves up and beats the Ring champ at 135 twice! He even gave him an immediate rematch after winning a very tough and clear but disputed decision.

Basically, I think Floyd's resume is heavily underrated. Even if he had just stopped after the Castillo fights his resume would have been Castillo (x2), Corrales, G.Hernandez and Chavez - that is a very good resume. Then he moves up and claims titles at 140, 147 and 154, beating the likes of Judah, Oscar and Hatton.

Incredible fighter with an incredible resume. That is my take on Mayweather.

[TheSurgeonMDMPH]

he fought at 147 several times and he fought at 154 how many times? god knows how much of a weight difference there truly was on cinco de mayo. pacq had no rematch plans setup, unlike floyd who did just enough to get a decision.(sounds crazy but I think it was true) 20 mil x 2 = more than he has made in his entire career, and contrary to popular belief he is no dumby. the judah fight, i didn't see floyd get busted up like cotto with vicous shots from zab, he did get caught with a counter right hook though but damn cotto ate some leather that had him leaking again in the margie fight from his mouth. there is nothing another fighter can do to take away from the victories of other fighters, that logic does not hold water. too many variables come into play especially the timeline.

Dr.

[Kris Silver]

Great responses, particularly well put post J Hitter. Dan aswell, but mate no with all respect don't read more in my posts then what's there. There's little need to disagree because I never here or anywhere actually said what my view was on Mayweather on these fights. I most drew relatively accurate factual examples for comparitive purproses, and asked hmmm, why?

Any opinion I did express or at least mean to express was that Mayweather was a great figher. I mostly put across what I see to be natural debating points and comparisons of others fighters wins over guys he's beaten. I also ended it with a why...did Floyd not despatch of them easier, as I'm eager for info and insight aswell of course.

I take the point of ODL, he did look very flat and weight drained. I mentioned that in my initial post however and have factored that in. I still don't think Pacman woulda beaten ODL had he have been less weight drained, he just seemed to do everything better. I know Osca wasn't well, but he woulda got the better early on at some points, or done the odd thing well or better at times, but not even that. To me that shows that Pacman showed a thoroughly different level, one which I think raises a question and natural comparison about Floyds performance.

I mostly just think it's interesting I suppose, am surprised it hasn't been discussed before seeing as though people use such arguments all the time when discussing and comparing boxers. But here not so. I never really gave much in Floyd being less of an over all fighter than Pacman. But there is something in all of it for me.

Again, I think Floyd's a great boxer, perhaps I do tend to think he get's more than enough accelaides whilst tbh and most will agree of late, Pacman has not had enough. All considered I think these are natural questions and debating points for the current climate and time.

[Dan...]

Great responses, particularly well put post J Hitter. Dan aswell, but mate no with all respect don't read more in my posts then what's there. There's little need to disagree because I never here or anywhere actually said what my view was on Mayweather on these fights. I most drew relatively accurate factual examples for comparitive purproses, and asked hmmm, why?

Any opinion I did express or at least mean to express was that Mayweather was a great figher. I mostly put across what I see to be natural debating points and comparisons of others fighters wins over guys he's beaten. I also ended it with a why...did Floyd not despatch of them easier, as I'm eager for info and insight aswell of course.

I take the point of ODL, he did look very flat and weight drained. I mentioned that in my initial post however and have factored that in. I still don't think Pacman woulda beaten ODL had he have been less weight drained, he just seemed to do everything better. I know Osca wasn't well, but he woulda got the better early on at some points, or done the odd thing well or better at times, but not even that. To me that shows that Pacman showed a thoroughly different level, one which I think raises a question and natural comparison about Floyds performance.

I mostly just think it's interesting I suppose, am surprised it hasn't been discussed before seeing as though people use such arguments all the time when discussing and comparing boxers. But here not so. I never really gave much in Floyd being less of an over all fighter than Pacman. But there is something in all of it for me.

Again, I think Floyd's a great boxer, perhaps I do tend to think he get's more than enough accelaides whilst tbh and most will agree of late, Pacman has not had enough. All considered I think these are natural questions and debating points for the current climate and time.

I dunno, I think Pac gets his credit tbh. Pretty much the only guys on here not giving him it are the hate-filled Mexicans.

Look, I'm not saying that Pac's win is not fantastic. The man started his career in one of the sport's lowest weight classes and the way he has risen up through the ranks is incredible, and beating DLH, even a depleted version, is incredible.

The thing is, it is easy to watch that fight and say, "well yeah, Pac was better at everything, his style was all wrong for Oscar, sure Oscar was depleted but it wouldn't have mattered" etc etc. But the thing is Oscar was literally dead at the weight. Go and rewatch Oscar-Mayorga and tell me if you think the same thing. Oscar is defending effectively and rattling off impressive combinations in that fight, systematically destroying a guy who is tough as nails.

Basically, I think it is unfair to compare the Oscar that Pac fought at 147 to the one that Floyd had to deal with at 154.

The Judah comparison is also unfar. Judah had so much more left against Floyd than he did against Clottey it ain't even funny.

[Kris Silver]

Great post man, I'll take note and watch and watch back some of those fights. Some of the points made I obviously anticipated I just wonder if they account for everything. A part of me still senses there's something else in it. Perhaps a lot also can be accounted for Floyd often not going for the KO, and only really getting on against an aggressive Hatton as he insisted on being predictable, lunging forwards falling into a trap.

Cotto and Pacman are big hitters, and pretty devastating to the body aswell. I do think Pac just looked on another level regardless against ODL which really impressed me, but then he is aggressive and will dominate a fight if the opponent isn't hanging with him, and I spose Osca just wasn't. Woulda been interesting to see Osca not be 147 weeks before the fight and come in at 154ish, as I do agree he looked very flat and fooked himself right up. Cheers again for the top posts fellla's!

[Vasyl’s dad]

I'll start by saying I think Mayweathers a great fighter and I have a lot of respect for him in the ring. I'm not a hater but I've been thinking about this somewhat recently.

To whatever extent...the underdog that was Pacqauio, a more natural LW ish fighter far less used to fighting at 147 has made Floyd's win over ODL look far less impressive.

Mayweather had fought at 140 and above 5 times before he faced ODL, 3 of those at 147 itself. Pacquaio had never been above 140, or really cited as likely to really perform that well at such a weight. He has less also in terms of height and reach advantage not to mention some other thought of short comings that lead to him being an underdog against ODL.

Yet only a year and a half after Floyd just got a SD over ODL, Pacquaio's first time at such a high weight and he was able to completely dominate ODL. This raises to whatever extent, some questions about just how good Mayweather's win over ODL was, and why he couldn't do with more ease what Pacman did. I know ODL was nowhere near as impressive against Pac, but a lot of it was Pac too. What if ODL got the nod against PBF, and then Pacquaio immediately went on to dominate him like that, imagine the question marks then!?!


Furthermore, Mayweather got a UD win over Judah, not only did Cotto manage to TKO him a year later, but more recently Clottey a relatively less well favoured WW has beaten him aswell.


I'm not flaming on Mayweather as I think he's a great fighter I really do. But this really does pose natural questions as to some of Floyd's good-top wins.

Why wasn't he able to despatch of these guys far easier?

Hes simply not as great as advertised.

[TheSurgeonMDMPH]

Great responses, particularly well put post J Hitter. Dan aswell, but mate no with all respect don't read more in my posts then what's there. There's little need to disagree because I never here or anywhere actually said what my view was on Mayweather on these fights. I most drew relatively accurate factual examples for comparitive purproses, and asked hmmm, why?

Any opinion I did express or at least mean to express was that Mayweather was a great figher. I mostly put across what I see to be natural debating points and comparisons of others fighters wins over guys he's beaten. I also ended it with a why...did Floyd not despatch of them easier, as I'm eager for info and insight aswell of course.

I take the point of ODL, he did look very flat and weight drained. I mentioned that in my initial post however and have factored that in. I still don't think Pacman woulda beaten ODL had he have been less weight drained, he just seemed to do everything better. I know Osca wasn't well, but he woulda got the better early on at some points, or done the odd thing well or better at times, but not even that. To me that shows that Pacman showed a thoroughly different level, one which I think raises a question and natural comparison about Floyds performance.

I mostly just think it's interesting I suppose, am surprised it hasn't been discussed before seeing as though people use such arguments all the time when discussing and comparing boxers. But here not so. I never really gave much in Floyd being less of an over all fighter than Pacman. But there is something in all of it for me.

Again, I think Floyd's a great boxer, perhaps I do tend to think he get's more than enough accelaides whilst tbh and most will agree of late, Pacman has not had enough. All considered I think these are natural questions and debating points for the current climate and time.

looks like i get to add you to serious poster/debater list. no fanboy bs coming from you when you wanna talk boxing and gain more insight. respect to you! i look forward to gaining insight and debating with you in the future.