Wlad–Chagaev & the lineal HW title

[JAB5239]

Perhaps my "old school" is showing but my interpretation of lineal is not the same of all modern fans. To me to be handed the lineal title, you need to take all the titles to be undisputed and not just beat the next available top contender because you don't want to fight the best other fighter(champion) in your weight class. I understand The Klitschko's refusing to fight their brother. But you just can't name one of them lineal champion, ring champion I understand but the two are not truly the same. Sure it sells better giving one the "title". Let's for the sake of conversation say AJ and Wilder fight and the winner fights Fury. I would consider the final winner lineal, because it's undisputed and "the man who beat the man etc".
However if the Ring decided if Joshua beat Whyte lineal or Wilder beat Fury lineal based on the top two willing fighters to face each other. I would rightfully object. like I said, perhaps my "oldschool" is showing

This is how I see it as well. You shouldn't be able to just make a new lineage up. The two best fighters should have to face each other in order to establish a new lineage. I understand why that didn't happen in this case, I just don't like the idea that the third best fighter could help establish such a distinct title in boxing. The lineal title belongs to no ABC organization, it offers a true piece of history only. It feels cheapened to me. But maybe that is the old school in me.

[billeau2]

It doesn’t devalue the linieal title because it had never happened before or after that barring an injury which would get the ranking changed. It wasn’t a loophole, it’s just a rule that was never used before because why would a perfectly healthy #2 fighter refuse to fight the champion for all of the marbles?

There had also been a vacancy in the linage for about 5 years already. Nobody knew how long Vitali would be back for, etc. Etc.

Yes!

the solution is too easy perhaps, so much so that people overlook it. The lineal changes when someone beats the man who beat the man. If people thought this through, it does not matter what anyone is ranked. the change only is affected when the lineal fights and is beaten.

If the lineal stops fighting then there would be a period where there is no lineal and eventually a new consensual "best" would emerge to be beaten eventually.

People make this more complicated than it needs to be by not recognizing the "big picture." The Big Picture being that the determination of the best for a lineal is two fold:
a) When possible it goes to the man who beats the best
b) When there is no best to be beaten, it goes to the man who is determined to be the best and is subsequently bested, or is not in effect. This could take place in a few ways:
1) Titles are unified
2) One fighter stands out in quality and skill
3) There is a period of absence when there is no lineal.

[billeau2]

Perhaps my "old school" is showing but my interpretation of lineal is not the same of all modern fans. To me to be handed the lineal title, you need to take all the titles to be undisputed and not just beat the next available top contender because you don't want to fight the best other fighter(champion) in your weight class. I understand The Klitschko's refusing to fight their brother. But you just can't name one of them lineal champion, ring champion I understand but the two are not truly the same. Sure it sells better giving one the "title". Let's for the sake of conversation say AJ and Wilder fight and the winner fights Fury. I would consider the final winner lineal, because it's undisputed and "the man who beat the man etc".
However if the Ring decided if Joshua beat Whyte lineal or Wilder beat Fury lineal based on the top two willing fighters to face each other. I would rightfully object. like I said, perhaps my "oldschool" is showing

lets break this down:

Your first contention is correct. Unifying the titles can produce a lineal. It usually does. The only way I can think that it would not, could be a situation where the best retires and will not fight again (perhaps he has an injury), and there is a fighter who is a champion and beats all, in an attempt to unify, except one of the present champions. This one exception gets hit by a mac truck and dies... Of course if two of the present champs get hit it would be the same situation. In this case the titles were not unified and the best was not beaten.

BUT this is WHY the fans can declare the lineal! The fans can say that fighter A is the best, as long as it is basically in line with conventions. So...lets say that this champion above who unifies, does so with the exception of beating that same last guy, who retires, but was never really a decent champion. Well... One could say the belts were not unfied, but the fans have every right to say they were...they could say that this fighter, unless he comes back and fights the present champ, cannot stop the progression of the lineal champ.

They can do this because the need to be technically precise in this situation goes against the "spirit" of the lineal. Also, as is often the case, there can just not be a lineal. If you have two, or three great fighters, there does not have to be a lineal.

it confuses people that the Lineal is not steeped in technical considerations. The spirit is to try to get a champ who beats the best competition. As long as that spirit is upheld there can be inconsistencies because they will resolve down the road... fighter B will be 60 years old and retired... fighter C got his belt by a fluke, and there is now a very talented fighter A who beat the two best fighters presently fighting... But nobody beat the best before he retired.... Etc Etc.

Thats my understanding.

[PittyPat]

All good arguments, but I still disagree with the notion of Chagaev's insertion into that fight having the lineal title at stake. Resume-wise he wasn't on Haye or Vitali's level, so he should've been ranked #4 at best, or #5 behind Valuev. There was too much of a rush to start a new lineage.

Obviously if Haye had fought Wladimir as scheduled, that should've established a new lineage based on them being the 2 best HWs at the time (Vitali ranked #2b, perhaps). So whoever hands out these lineal titles should've waited until the 2011 Haye–Wladimir fight to fill it.

[QueensburyRules]

--- Sonnyboy, Chagaev was a full heavy, not a moaning pinky toe cruiser like Haye who beat Valuev on the Eve of him passing Rocky's record.

Got some strange boys on this board with Ouiji board fantasies. Haye fought their leftovers...sheesh, what grade was you in?

[BattlingNelson]

All good arguments, but I still disagree with the notion of Chagaev's insertion into that fight having the lineal title at stake. Resume-wise he wasn't on Haye or Vitali's level, so he should've been ranked #4 at best, or #5 behind Valuev. There was too much of a rush to start a new lineage.

Obviously if Haye had fought Wladimir as scheduled, that should've established a new lineage based on them being the 2 best HWs at the time (Vitali ranked #2b, perhaps). So whoever hands out these lineal titles should've waited until the 2011 Haye–Wladimir fight to fill it.

Chagaev was the clear no.3 having taken Valuev's zero.

[Ben Bolt]

If we go back to the days of Sharkey vs. Schmeling or Moore vs. Patterson, I’m sure that if Schmeling or Patterson had turned down the fights, the boxing world (much wiser back then) had matched Sharkey and Moore against the next foes in line to crown THE world champion.

And the decision hadn’t been questioned today. We had seen the winners as true (lineal) champs.
It’s really sad, that pro-boxing has let these crooked alphabet orgs run the agenda.

[Anthony342]

What else are you supposed to do. You go to the next guy in line and they fight for the title seems fair to me. Wlad beat the hell out of everyone else. If you want to count him as lineal later on, then go ahead, but he was still lineal and cleaned out the weak ass heavyweight division. You don't like it, start your own organization and make your own rules.

[QueensburyRules]

--- That's my original point, there are no coherent rules, thus the ABCs established their rules for their belt.

From the days of bare Knucks forward their have always been disputed claimants much less throwing in the tooth faery lineal title.

[billeau2]

--- That's my original point, there are no coherent rules, thus the ABCs established their rules for their belt.

From the days of bare Knucks forward their have always been disputed claimants much less throwing in the tooth faery lineal title.

There have been disputes for various reasons that have nothing to do with whom is the best, including about rules, locations, lineage. Actually the lineal has been pretty clear and resounding. And coherent rules are not the issue, thats not what the ABC's were about, rather it was about creating a lock on the championship, seldom concerned whether this was involving the best, or not. YOur typically ignorant of the same mistake in logical thinking that many are:

The logical solution is all wrong! Every time this issue comes up someone wants a new organization with strict(stricter?!) rules, another alphabet soup so to speak...which is EXACTLY what SHOULD NOT be the solution. These orgnizations will never have the clarity of the champion who gets there as the lineal.

Then people cry that the lineal is too fluid a concept, not official enough... To which I say b@llocks! The fluidity of the lineal is its strength! It is the fans declaration of whom is the best and it is supposed to be based on beating the best. When there is a technical problem with transfer, what is so horrendous about letting the fans declare the a new lineal? Why does the strongest title have to be the most official?

Its that simple: If one guy who beat the best is retired, and the other guy beats the strongest champion out there, does it really matter that both could be the lineal? Assuming this ever even comes up?

An organization will declare a champion in line with their agenda, that is never based on whom is the best....Never, which is why titles are stronger when unified in the first place. The lineal is based on the strongest, the best fighter and no organization to speak of! The fans know who is the best and do not need burocrats to tell them that a title holder is skilled, or not.

If it was up to idiots like you we would have twice as many of these organizations and never have a unified champion. Your logic is the same as the man who tries to put out a fire by starting another one.