Larry Holmes never gets the credit he deserves!

[Ben Bolt]

PS. We have the same dilemma today.
Tyson Fury relinquished the title and went into retirement. Now he’s back.
If Wilder beats him, will Wilder be considered the lineal champion though Fury is no longer a champ.
I believe a lot of people will think so (again, a strong case). And Joshua will be upset.

[TBear]

Beating Jones had nothing to do with his lineage.

The fact that Holmes beat Weaver and Weaver beat Tate is a stretch to say the least.

I am not debating that. I am just saying what Ring magazine said at the time. I still have the Ring where they claimed it was the reason. Beating Ali was a better reason no doubt.

I don't need Wiki to see what happened in the 70's and 80's I watched every fight back then and subscribed to every publication.


That being said, I never agreed with the modern definition of lineal champion. Before The Ring started naming Ring champions(which fans today tab "lineal"), lineal meant "the man who beat the man". Marciano and Louis for example, they where the only champions in the world so they where the lineal champion. Back in the seventies The Ring had many titles vacant in their rankings and decided a way to fill those spots often was naming a champion that held one title but was not undisputed, meaning there were other champions out there with a claim to the title. Fans started confusing Ring campion with "lineal" which before that time also meant someone down the line was the only champion.

[TBear]

The Ring did recognize Holmes as world champ after beating Jones. The win over Ali, even though Ali wasn't considered a title holder but a challenger, made it a strong case calling it lineal.

It kind of reminds of Ezzard Charles. We generally see him as a world champ from 1949 after beating Jersey Joe, but it wasn't until a year later, after the Louis win, that his reign became undisputed.

I'm not sure I remember right (TBear still have the old magazines), but at the same time that Holmes got recognition due to the Jones victory, WBC light heavy champ Saad Muhammad also got rewarded with the Ring belt because of a previous win over the newly crowned WBA champion.

Yes I still have every magazine published from 77-2006 and I pull a stack out every week to read. Admittedly my wife gets tired of seeing all the magazines cluttering up the bathroom, but a mans got to read!

[HOUDINI563]

I began watching boxing in 1971. Watched all of these bouts live. Never heard that beating Jones made Holmes lineal. I do not see ANY word of that today in any reference.

[Ben Bolt]

a mans got to read!

In the 1970s-80s, I subscribed to every US and British boxing magazine/newsletter available. Especially the piles of the weekly Boxing News occupied most of the space in my tiny flat back then. It did get out of hand, so I got rid of most of my collection. There are things you regret later in life.

Note Holmes is recognized as champion for the first time the night he beat Ali.

At times, The Ring has revised its written histories. For ex., old The Ring encyclopaedias listed Philadelphia Jack O’Brien as light heavyweight champion 1905–1912, despite the fact he never had a title defense.

[Ben Bolt]

I began watching boxing in 1971. Watched all of these bouts live. Never heard that beating Jones made Holmes lineal. I do not see ANY word of that today in any reference.

No, it didn't make Holmes lineal, but he definitely had the strongest claim to the world title, so I don't question The Ring's decision at the time.

Also worth remembering, back then The Ring was at war with WBC and WBA. It even led to the magazine being barred from one or two WBC events.

[HOUDINI563]

Here are the Ring rankings from March 1981. Title is vacant.

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Th..._Ratings:_1979

[Ben Bolt]

Here are the Ring rankings from March 1981. Title is vacant.

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Th..._Ratings:_1979

It's because the March issue contained news up to and including December.
The March issue always rounded off the previous year, and in which the Fighter of the Year and Fight of the Year were named.

[HOUDINI563]

The idea of the Ring champion is that fighter is considered the lineal champion. Ring has always pushed the idea of the lineal champion being the true champion and rightfully so.

Again sometimes it’s easy to determine the lineal champion as when Dempsey beat Willard or Louis beat Braddock. Other times it’s a question of the top two fighters facing off as was the case with Sharkey and Schmeling or Patterson and Moore. The tricky part such as the Holmes situation is when politics come into play such as the WBA turnement creating islands between the various fighters leaving fans without historical perspective scratching their heads.

Holmes claim to the true and only title of historical value is his win over the universal No 1 “uncrowned” champion Ken Norton and then his win over the unretired Ali in 1980. No other hwt had those high of marks on their belt. There was no need to have any other win in order to claim the true title. Ring made Holmes the lineal champion once he beat Ali.

[Anthony342]

Box Rec:

Won the lineal World Heavyweight Championship when he defeated Muhammad Ali by a 10th-round RTD on October 2, 1980. Holmes defended it 12 times.

Yeah I only count lineal or undisputed championship wins or defenses too. Don't know why more people don't put more emphasis on it or at least differentiate.