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who ranks higher ATG James Toney.... Bernard Hopkins
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Originally posted by DempseyRollin View Posti disagree. toney could have been better. he had more gifts. but hopkins was and is clearly the better fighter in the long run.
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Originally posted by tredh View PostGood answer but Toney has done great in boxing is a 1st ballot HOF'er and is still looked at as an underachiever. That says a lot. I know "if's" don't count but if Toney had the dedication and discipline of Hopkins or PBF he could have been possibly a top 10 ATG IMO that dude was born to fight.
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James Toney .. and its not close.
When one considers that James Toney was the P4P#1 fighter in the world when Pernell Whitaker was competing in his prime, its an open and shut debate.
Hopkins has NEVER been as dominant or as feared as Toney was.
Hopkins stayed in one division for over a decade avoiding any other champions at MW from 1990-2001.
James Toney dominated the SMW division. Then Toney, unlike Hopkins, went up in weight and began kicking assss up the higher divisions.
I like Hopkins and applaud his late efforts to step it up big time, but Toney is in a different class.
There's a reason why Bernard Hopkins DIDN'T go up in weight back in the 90's and early 2000's. There were people there that would have kicked his asss around the ring.
And to be honest, if Hopkins really wanted to make his mark, he should have entered the SMW tournament and showed what he had against prime young guys who were fast enough to give him problems.
The difference in the chances taken and the point in which they took them are pretty big.
If Hopkins lost now, people would say that he was old and didn't retire soon enough. Toney was taking those chances in his prime and was judged by them as part of his legacy. Hopkins had plenty of opportunities to take chances, but he waited for there to be a Plan B excuse(being an old man) to fall back on in case it didn't work out for him.
Let's not forget:
Hopkins lost to Taylor twice. Hopkins lost to Winky Wright IMO, but not officially. Hopkins list to Calzaghe. But no one strongly factors in those losses because we are quick to say "Well the guy is old and is out there still doing his thing".
Hopkins gets to lose at this stage without being heavily judged for it, but when he wins its like America won the FIFA world cup.
Its slick and clever but its still crap.
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Originally posted by LarryX2011 View PostHopkins and it aint even close,better resume,longevity and more accomplishments,no positive tests for steroidsOriginally posted by Rip Chudd View PostB-Hop and it's not even close.
Originally posted by DempseyRollin View Postnot really much of an argument,toney isnt an atg.
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Originally posted by DempseyRollin View Postonce again, i disagree. u cant call toney the better fighter. what do u mean? he was the more skilled fighter? im guessing thats what ur saying because i dont see how u can say hes the better fighter.
And I agree with him.
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Originally posted by Brother Jay View PostJames Toney .. and its not close.
When one considers that James Toney was the P4P#1 fighter in the world when Pernell Whitaker was competing in his prime, its an open and shut debate.
Hopkins has NEVER been as dominant or as feared as Toney was.
Hopkins stayed in one division for over a decade avoiding any other champions at MW from 1990-2001.
James Toney dominated the SMW division. Then Toney, unlike Hopkins, went up in weight and began kicking assss up the higher divisions.
I like Hopkins and applaud his late efforts to step it up big time, but Toney is in a different class.
There's a reason why Bernard Hopkins DIDN'T go up in weight back in the 90's and early 2000's. There were people there that would have kicked his asss around the ring.
And to be honest, if Hopkins really wanted to make his mark, he should have entered the SMW tournament and showed what he had against prime young guys who were fast enough to give him problems.
The difference in the chances taken and the point in which they took them are pretty big.
If Hopkins lost now, people would say that he was old and didn't retire soon enough. Toney was taking those chances in his prime and was judged by them as part of his legacy. Hopkins had plenty of opportunities to take chances, but he waited for there to be a Plan B excuse(being an old man) to fall back on in case it didn't work out for him.
Let's not forget:
Hopkins lost to Taylor twice. Hopkins lost to Winky Wright IMO, but not officially. Hopkins list to Calzaghe. But no one strongly factors in those losses because we are quick to say "Well the guy is old and is out there still doing his thing". Hopkins gets to lose at this stage without being heavily judged for it, but when he wins its like America won the FIFA world cup.
Its slick and clever but its still crap.
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And James Toney has a solid argument for ATG status.
For me he's boarderline. I'd have to think about it more.
To answer the question; I would rank Hopkins higher.
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