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Old 08-18-2019, 02:38 PM #21
Eff Pandas Eff Pandas is offline
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Definitely. Marciano wouldn't even BE a HW today. He'd be fighting Usyk & Gassiev at CW.
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Old 08-18-2019, 03:31 PM #22
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Originally Posted by Eff Pandas View Post
Definitely. Marciano wouldn't even BE a HW today. He'd be fighting Usyk & Gassiev at CW.
- -You sick?

Usyk declared hisself a heavy, ie: fighting a 220lb Rocky.
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Old 08-18-2019, 03:40 PM #23
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Originally Posted by QueensburyRules View Post
- -You sick?

Usyk declared hisself a heavy, ie: fighting a 220lb Rocky.
He was a small cat for a HW. 5'10ish. And he wasn't built thicc like Tyson either. With the way weigh ins work today he woulda turned pro as a super middeweight or light heavy. He'd retire at CW.
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Old 08-18-2019, 03:53 PM #24
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Originally Posted by Dempsey19 View Post
Would Marciano be too small for today's heavyweight division ?

What about a highly skilled,modern fighter with incredible power, chin, hand and footspeed who happened to be exactly the same size as Marciano ? Would such a fighter be successful in the heavyweight division or just be too small ?
He couldn't compete with the likes of Tyson Fury The GOAT of heavyweights, or Deontay Wilder, the windmilling wrecking ball. Would be more on a Tom Little, Dave Allen level in this era.
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Old 08-18-2019, 03:55 PM #25
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Old 08-18-2019, 05:28 PM #26
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Originally Posted by billeau2 View Post
while both Frazier and Holyfield could do more things well
That is a very dubious statement.

Perhaps, Tunney was speaking about what light heavyweights should aim to bulk up to ?

Michael Spinks also weighed 195 when he took on Holmes.

RJJ weighed 193 against Ruiz.

After Holyfield's first fight his trainer was asked whether they would bulk him up and he basically said that they had planned to make him 220 but realized they would be losing speed and had decided to let him be on the lighter side, and he'd even be fine with 198.

It's worth noting that after Spinks was weighed in at an overly-hydrated 200 pounds (so only really 195), none of the experts considered him a small man. They were amazed how he had gotten so big and I think Holmes or his trainer said bulking him up to 195 was a scheme to give him a puncher's chance- a sub-200 pound man having a puncher's chance against a 220+ pound man ! Holmes at the time was around the same size as Otto Wallin !

Spinks is a very interesting example of a sub-200 pound man being extremely successful in the modern era- It is definitely noteworthy that his 'O' was only taken away in his last fight at the age of 32 by a Prime Mike Tyson in his career-best performance ! (Who weighed in the 190s during his amateur days and doesn't look any weaker or softer punching on film). I know Shilstone claimed Spinks was 7.2% body fat but that is very unlikely looking at photographs.

It could be argued Holmes won the rematch but if he did it was more because of Spink's ****iness than Holmes being the superior fighter, he started to stand and trade with Holmes instead of boxing him and it's not like he's the only reigning champion to benefit from a decision.

Rusty said that Quarry was undersized for his era but being undersized didn't prevent him from KOing Earnie Shavers in 1 round, beating Ron Lyle and being ducked by Foreman. It's not like Quarry lost to Ali because he was lighter than him. And Frazier even said he'd be the World Champ if he didn't cut so easy. Indicating that a man of Quarry's size and skill with less cut-prone skin may have been better than all of them.

Last edited by Dempsey19; 08-18-2019 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 08-18-2019, 06:04 PM #27
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Originally Posted by Eff Pandas View Post
He was a small cat for a HW. 5'10ish. And he wasn't built thicc like Tyson either. With the way weigh ins work today he woulda turned pro as a super middeweight or light heavy. He'd retire at CW.
- -With the way fans are today, you'd be...

Rocky never had to make 175, so you're reaching. What we do know is that he wouldn't have to drop 40 lbs in the 12 rd era and could concentrate on stamina, strength, and technique in an era that awards Rocky extra Pts for his KDs.
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Old 08-18-2019, 06:11 PM #28
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- -Myth- Big George ducked Quarry.

And Tinkerbell ducked Peter Pan and Timbuktu Boy as well.
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Old 08-18-2019, 06:14 PM #29
Eff Pandas Eff Pandas is offline
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Originally Posted by QueensburyRules View Post
- -With the way fans are today, you'd be...

Rocky never had to make 175, so you're reaching. What we do know is that he wouldn't have to drop 40 lbs in the 12 rd era and could concentrate on stamina, strength, and technique in an era that awards Rocky extra Pts for his KDs.
How am I reaching. He was a smaller dude. The heaviest he was was low 190's & the lowest he was was mid 170's. And this was with same day weigh ins of the time. He'd 100% be weighing in lower with 24hr weigh ins & in divisions where he'd actually have to make weight finally. I don't think 168 would be out of range for him. 175 maybe more reasonable idk. He's definitely not fighting HW. And maybe he goes up to 200/CW at some point.
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Old 08-18-2019, 07:27 PM #30
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Originally Posted by Dempsey19 View Post
That is a very dubious statement.

Perhaps, Tunney was speaking about what light heavyweights should aim to bulk up to ?

Michael Spinks also weighed 195 when he took on Holmes.

RJJ weighed 193 against Ruiz.

After Holyfield's first fight his trainer was asked whether they would bulk him up and he basically said that they had planned to make him 220 but realized they would be losing speed and had decided to let him be on the lighter side, and he'd even be fine with 198.

It's worth noting that after Spinks was weighed in at an overly-hydrated 200 pounds (so only really 195), none of the experts considered him a small man. They were amazed how he had gotten so big and I think Holmes or his trainer said bulking him up to 195 was a scheme to give him a puncher's chance- a sub-200 pound man having a puncher's chance against a 220+ pound man ! Holmes at the time was around the same size as Otto Wallin !

Spinks is a very interesting example of a sub-200 pound man being extremely successful in the modern era- It is definitely noteworthy that his 'O' was only taken away in his last fight at the age of 32 by a Prime Mike Tyson in his career-best performance ! (Who weighed in the 190s during his amateur days and doesn't look any weaker or softer punching on film)

It could be argued Holmes won the rematch but if he did it was more because of Spink's ****iness than Holmes being the superior fighter, he started to stand and trade with Holmes instead of boxing him and it's not like he's the only reigning champion to benefit from a decision.

Rusty said that Quarry was undersized for his era but being undersized didn't prevent him from KOing Earnie Shavers in 1 round, beating Ron Lyle and being ducked by Foreman. It's not like Quarry lost to Ali because he was lighter than him. And Frazier even said he'd be the World Champ if he didn't cut so easy. Indicating that a man of Quarry's size and skill with less cut-prone skin may have been better than all of them.
When I said I disagree with Tunney on this specifically i think a heavyweight limit, the point where the extra weight becomes irrelevant would be around 210-220. I mean I can see a heavyweight weighing less and being succesful, I just mean that when God put the blue print down, I picture a guy like Ike Ibuichi, or Sonny Liston as what gets built. That does not mean someone lighter is undersized by any means, it just means that the ideal weight to me is more than 190ish.

Now if you think Tunney was dubious, it makes sense for him to declare this limit, because most of the better heavyweights that had come about weighed in at that limit. Thats my guess.
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