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Old 09-04-2019, 03:42 AM #21
Dempsey19 Dempsey19 is offline
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Originally Posted by Marchegiano View Post

Today you have to be 200+. Does not mean a 190er can't beat the **** out of Fury, Wilder, and Ruiz while weighing 190. It means he's not allowed. Find me an era when they were allowed but failed. Doesn't exist. What does exist is an era where they were allowed and dominated....that's pretty powerful and there's a loooot of history on it.
A 190 lber can easily put on water weight, weigh in with clothes/costume, not take a dump and weigh in above the 200 pound minimum at the weigh-in

The man who began the domination of the big men and created the concept of a good big ‘un beats a good little ‘un - John L Sullivan, the first heavyweight, was 190 pounds in his prime so maybe 190 pounds is a big man.

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Old 09-04-2019, 09:05 AM #22
Marchegiano Marchegiano is offline
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Originally Posted by Dempsey19 View Post
A 190 lber can easily put on water weight, weigh in with clothes/costume, not take a dump and weigh in above the 200 pound minimum at the weigh-in

The man who began the domination of the big men and created the concept of a good big Ďun beats a good little Ďun - John L Sullivan, the first heavyweight, was 190 pounds in his prime so maybe 190 pounds is a big man.
That's a whole lot of steps, even if they're simple, that Fitzs did not have to take. While this 190 has tummy cramps because he's holding a **** Bob's sipping sherry and feeling good.

During Sully's era the name that most often regarded as the man he should have fought but didn't is Godfrey, the colored champion, who was not a big'un. Corbett and Fitzs are your next champions, hardly big dudes....maybe I missed your point but Sullivan's dominance alone does not equate to big men trouncing small men, it equates to Sullivan being dominant in his era. Small men surrounded him and took over after him.

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I could be wrong but wasn't that the same time p4p was first used?


Before the 190s were forced out you didn't see many 160s or 170s after Burns. That makes sense given the minimal for HW was 175 since 1920. And of course a 160 lber would never be allowed to try again. So is Willard really that good or did he get protected by the smaller pool of fighters?

from Dempsey until the 60s the 185ers did just fine and are well represented. The minimal becomes 190 and like magic the new good small end of the division is 190s.

190 lingered but probably had the roughest time. I'd say when the 200+ was edging out the 190s is probably the strongest argument for good big men...because who do boxing fans have to rep the 190s in the 70s or 80s? Lucky to have Spinks I reckon...by memory. One could argue being big was cool in that era, it's the Arnold era in film and the explosion of things like Strong Man come from that era, but, I'm just saying you could make that argument not actually suggesting that's why Spinks is so lonely for sure.

Then the new min becomes 200+ and several small men grab titles including a MW who made weight.

Now here we are with 201 as the min and a champion who debuted at 207 and fights often at 215.

The smaller end of the division's always done fine. It's been moved loads and forced the smaller end to be larger over time but I really don't see much argument for one demographic displacing the other without sanction bodies making it happen.

It wasn't that long ago Haye gave up 99lbs to whoop Valuev ... because in all honesty being huge doesn't make you good and a whole demographic of huge and good is unheard of. Wlad was huge and good and smashed Haye. Nikolai was never very good, just huge, and got whooped.

Could you imagine Wilder weighing in at 215 and fighting a 116? Haye took Valuev's belt though.


Fun talk buds.
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Old 09-04-2019, 10:35 AM #23
Dempsey19 Dempsey19 is offline
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Originally Posted by Marchegiano View Post
That's a whole lot of steps, even if they're simple, that Fitzs did not have to take. While this 190 has tummy cramps because he's holding a **** Bob's sipping sherry and feeling good.

During Sully's era the name that most often regarded as the man he should have fought but didn't is Godfrey, the colored champion, who was not a big'un. Corbett and Fitzs are your next champions, hardly big dudes....maybe I missed your point but Sullivan's dominance alone does not equate to big men trouncing small men, it equates to Sullivan being dominant in his era. Small men surrounded him and took over after him.

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I could be wrong but wasn't that the same time p4p was first used?


Before the 190s were forced out you didn't see many 160s or 170s after Burns. That makes sense given the minimal for HW was 175 since 1920. And of course a 160 lber would never be allowed to try again. So is Willard really that good or did he get protected by the smaller pool of fighters?

from Dempsey until the 60s the 185ers did just fine and are well represented. The minimal becomes 190 and like magic the new good small end of the division is 190s.

190 lingered but probably had the roughest time. I'd say when the 200+ was edging out the 190s is probably the strongest argument for good big men...because who do boxing fans have to rep the 190s in the 70s or 80s? Lucky to have Spinks I reckon...by memory. One could argue being big was cool in that era, it's the Arnold era in film and the explosion of things like Strong Man come from that era, but, I'm just saying you could make that argument not actually suggesting that's why Spinks is so lonely for sure.

Then the new min becomes 200+ and several small men grab titles including a MW who made weight.

Now here we are with 201 as the min and a champion who debuted at 207 and fights often at 215.

The smaller end of the division's always done fine. It's been moved loads and forced the smaller end to be larger over time but I really don't see much argument for one demographic displacing the other without sanction bodies making it happen.

It wasn't that long ago Haye gave up 99lbs to whoop Valuev ... because in all honesty being huge doesn't make you good and a whole demographic of huge and good is unheard of. Wlad was huge and good and smashed Haye. Nikolai was never very good, just huge, and got whooped.

Could you imagine Wilder weighing in at 215 and fighting a 116? Haye took Valuev's belt though.


Fun talk buds.
My point is actually that 190 is plenty big.

I do see where you are coming from.

In his prime Billy Conn was the finest fighting machine on the planet.

Andre Ward beat Clemente Russo who had no trouble beating both Usyk and Wilder.

If Fitz had been prime when he fought Jeffries...
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:01 PM #24
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[QUOTE=Dempsey19;20029731]
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But what about a 5í10Ē man with a long reach like Bert Cooper or Earnie Shavers ? (Both have about the same reach as Vitali)
I mean ur right, thereís so many factors that go into making a top guy. Iím always impressed by any decent shorter heavyweight. But to be a lot shorter u must be bringing a lot of other attributes to the table. A lot of real tall guys are lacking in areas too. But yeah any HW whose been near the mountain top regardless of his height Iím prolly underestimating. Shavers had a sneaky chopping right hand that could hurt anyone. Smoking Cooper was just a plain tough strong fighter. These guys were still not champs though. Iíve seen Tua blow people away, was sure he was next champ. Missed barely on Lennox a few times, but then Lennox painted him with a right. Tua just couldnít rush in after that. I donít know who the shortest best HW is right now. Iíd love to see a sub 6ft guy come along. But as of right now all the guys are pretty tall.
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:05 AM #25
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[QUOTE=Socialtwinkie;20034513]
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Originally Posted by Dempsey19 View Post

Taller fighter still has the advantage because if he were to pull from a punch he can travel more distance. Same can be true for throwing forward and covering distance

Look at wilder. It's tough to evade that right because when he hop steps and extends he can cover almost half the ring.
That was Dempsey19ís quote not mine. He responded to my talk of tall ( superheavyweights ) fighters having an advantage like u said. When they are all great they all have something to offer though. But like I posted I just imagine how good a 5í10Ē fighter would have to be to beat an elite tall and long fighter like Lennox consistently.
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Old 09-11-2019, 04:01 PM #26
Dempsey19 Dempsey19 is offline
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[QUOTE=Blond Beast;20049954]
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Originally Posted by Dempsey19 View Post

I mean ur right, thereís so many factors that go into making a top guy. Iím always impressed by any decent shorter heavyweight. But to be a lot shorter u must be bringing a lot of other attributes to the table. A lot of real tall guys are lacking in areas too. But yeah any HW whose been near the mountain top regardless of his height Iím prolly underestimating. Shavers had a sneaky chopping right hand that could hurt anyone. Smoking Cooper was just a plain tough strong fighter. These guys were still not champs though. Iíve seen Tua blow people away, was sure he was next champ. Missed barely on Lennox a few times, but then Lennox painted him with a right. Tua just couldnít rush in after that. I donít know who the shortest best HW is right now. Iíd love to see a sub 6ft guy come along. But as of right now all the guys are pretty tall.
Ruiz is probably under 6 feet in actuality.
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Old 09-11-2019, 04:02 PM #27
Dempsey19 Dempsey19 is offline
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[QUOTE=Blond Beast;20050090]
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Originally Posted by Socialtwinkie View Post

That was Dempsey19ís quote not mine. He responded to my talk of tall ( superheavyweights ) fighters having an advantage like u said. When they are all great they all have something to offer though. But like I posted I just imagine how good a 5í10Ē fighter would have to be to beat an elite tall and long fighter like Lennox consistently.
He was responding to my post asking about 5í10Ē fighters with superheavyweight-esque reaches like Shavers and Cooper.
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Old 09-13-2019, 12:52 AM #28
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[QUOTE=Dempsey19;20051321]
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Ruiz is probably under 6 feet in actuality.
Iíve talked about it before, I canít believe how fighters are not measured for height by a commission in front of everyone each fight. We make so much of weight. But Iíve seen different listed heights for the same fighter at various times. I didnít think Ruiz was 6í3Ē when I saw him at the first presser v AJ. But I havenít seen AJ measured either. Thereís so much money at stake ud think fans and bettors would have a right to get an accurate height. I saw Ruiz on YouTube today doing a pizza taste test. I donít think he looked 6í3Ē but I donít know if heís sub 6ft though. We should know these things for sure. I will say he didnít look to be overly heavy.
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Old 09-13-2019, 06:01 AM #29
Dempsey19 Dempsey19 is offline
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[QUOTE=Blond Beast;20054205]
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Originally Posted by Dempsey19 View Post

Iíve talked about it before, I canít believe how fighters are not measured for height by a commission in front of everyone each fight. We make so much of weight. But Iíve seen different listed heights for the same fighter at various times. I didnít think Ruiz was 6í3Ē when I saw him at the first presser v AJ. But I havenít seen AJ measured either. Thereís so much money at stake ud think fans and bettors would have a right to get an accurate height. I saw Ruiz on YouTube today doing a pizza taste test. I donít think he looked 6í3Ē but I donít know if heís sub 6ft though. We should know these things for sure. I will say he didnít look to be overly heavy.
We live in a great time if world class athletes are doing pizza taste tests !
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Old 09-13-2019, 06:47 AM #30
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Originally Posted by Left Hook Tua View Post
From the beginning to about floyd Patterson's, heavyweights were around 190-200 lbs.

The first modern heavyweight champions was sonny liston and Ali who were around 220 lbs

First super heavyweight champion was riddick bowe 1990s

ff
- -Walking you back, Jess Willard and Primo Carnera in the 6-6 to 6-7 range and 240-270 range decades before Big Dummy was ever hatched.

Joe Louis size mirrored Ali.

Yer welcome!
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