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Old 08-16-2019, 06:46 PM #1
Dariusz Dariusz is online now
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Default Ali vs. Foreman fight -- enlight me, please...

...if it is true that:
- the ropes in the Kinshasa fight was set illegally loose so that Ali could defend easier;
- it was Ali who did not want the rematch.
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Old 08-16-2019, 07:11 PM #2
QueensburyRules QueensburyRules is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dariusz View Post
...if it is true that:
- the ropes in the Kinshasa fight was set illegally loose so that Ali could defend easier;
- it was Ali who did not want the rematch.
- -Yes and Yes the short answer.
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Old 08-16-2019, 07:39 PM #3
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People like to say he dodged him but Foreman went into deep depression after that fight ballooned in weight and didn’t fight for 15 months .When he returned he went life and death with Ron Lyle getting off the canvas twice to get the win .At that point over 15 months later he was never the same.He beat a completely washed out Frazier before losing to young and was on the deck for that one.The simple fact Ali had moved on .
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Old 08-17-2019, 02:01 PM #4
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Why fight a broken shell?
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Old 08-17-2019, 02:51 PM #5
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So, it means in today's world, the Kinshasa fight would be no contest, right ?
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Old 08-17-2019, 04:52 PM #6
QueensburyRules QueensburyRules is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longhaul View Post
People like to say he dodged him but Foreman went into deep depression after that fight ballooned in weight and didn’t fight for 15 months .When he returned he went life and death with Ron Lyle getting off the canvas twice to get the win .At that point over 15 months later he was never the same.He beat a completely washed out Frazier before losing to young and was on the deck for that one.The simple fact Ali had moved on .
- -Went into deep depression because Ali wouldn't fight him.

Just as well as Ali team forbade that fight because of the permanent damage George did to Ali.
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Old 08-17-2019, 06:32 PM #7
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Norman Mailer wrote an entire book on that fight, but didn't speculate on a re-match.

You don't get much from Wikipedia:

"Foreman...was unable to secure a rematch with Ali. It has been suggested in some quarters that Ali was ducking Foreman, although he did give a rematch to Joe Frazier and to Ken Norton."

Did Ali think his rope-a-dope wouldn't work a second time? Possible.

How long would it have taken to secure an immediate rematch and get the funding? That could've delayed things quite a bit. Did this fight instantly make back the huge sums paid to the fighters, or did it take a little more time with film rights and free TV broadcast re-run? Meanwhile, as champ, Ali did have obligations to fight somebody, even if it was just Wepner five months later.

Before Ali fought Wepner, George staged that bizarre "exhibition" in which he took on five fighters, April 27, 1975. Muhammad was ringside, taunting George, which does suggest that a re-match was possible.

The New York Times, reporting on the exhibition: "Foreman, according to promoter Don King, will receive “at least $100,000,” although the promoter indicated the former champion's money might be an advance against an eventual All rematch."

George sure had a rugged fight with Lyle in his first fight after Ali, January 24, 1976. Then he gave Joe Frazier a rematch, June 15, 1976. He knocked over a few tomato cans till Jimmy Young exhausted him by going the distance March 17, 1977.

Meanwhile Ali fought Wepner after Foreman (March 24, 1975), came back very quickly to fight Ron Lyle who had nearly KO'd George (May 16, 1975), and then took on Bugner very quickly (June 30, 1975) and Joe Frazier (October 1, 1975). His second fight in 1976 was against Jimmy Young (April 30, 1976) and his fourth was another grueling Ken Norton match (September 28, 1976).

Both guys were certainly busy, and given TV money, promoters, a need to stay active and in the public eye, it's not much of a surprise that Ali-Foreman 2 never happened. Maybe if George hadn't lost to Young on March 17, 1977, it would've been Ali-Foreman 2 on September 29, 1977 instead of Ali-Shavers. You can't say Ali was ducking dangerous opponents after upsetting George for the championship.

Last edited by smeck; 08-17-2019 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 08-17-2019, 11:50 PM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smeck View Post
Norman Mailer wrote an entire book on that fight, but didn't speculate on a re-match.

You don't get much from Wikipedia:

"Foreman...was unable to secure a rematch with Ali. It has been suggested in some quarters that Ali was ducking Foreman, although he did give a rematch to Joe Frazier and to Ken Norton."

Did Ali think his rope-a-dope wouldn't work a second time? Possible.

How long would it have taken to secure an immediate rematch and get the funding? That could've delayed things quite a bit. Did this fight instantly make back the huge sums paid to the fighters, or did it take a little more time with film rights and free TV broadcast re-run? Meanwhile, as champ, Ali did have obligations to fight somebody, even if it was just Wepner five months later.

Before Ali fought Wepner, George staged that bizarre "exhibition" in which he took on five fighters, April 27, 1975. Muhammad was ringside, taunting George, which does suggest that a re-match was possible.

The New York Times, reporting on the exhibition: "Foreman, according to promoter Don King, will receive “at least $100,000,” although the promoter indicated the former champion's money might be an advance against an eventual All rematch."

George sure had a rugged fight with Lyle in his first fight after Ali, January 24, 1976. Then he gave Joe Frazier a rematch, June 15, 1976. He knocked over a few tomato cans till Jimmy Young exhausted him by going the distance March 17, 1977.

Meanwhile Ali fought Wepner after Foreman (March 24, 1975), came back very quickly to fight Ron Lyle who had nearly KO'd George (May 16, 1975), and then took on Bugner very quickly (June 30, 1975) and Joe Frazier (October 1, 1975). His second fight in 1976 was against Jimmy Young (April 30, 1976) and his fourth was another grueling Ken Norton match (September 28, 1976).

Both guys were certainly busy, and given TV money, promoters, a need to stay active and in the public eye, it's not much of a surprise that Ali-Foreman 2 never happened. Maybe if George hadn't lost to Young on March 17, 1977, it would've been Ali-Foreman 2 on September 29, 1977 instead of Ali-Shavers. You can't say Ali was ducking dangerous opponents after upsetting George for the championship.
- -The Playboy 1974 interview is yer friend.

Ali says an Indonesian oilman offered him a 5$ mil apiece rematch that Ali wouldn't commit to, instead looking like warmed over poo for a million against Wepner.

Much more, but that's the gist. Didn't fancy it.
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Old 08-18-2019, 07:36 AM #9
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is offline
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Foreman claims his trainer, Dick Saddler (Sandy's brother) doped him up before the fight.

The Panama Lewis bottle of sumthin sumthin is the ready excuse for why Arguello lost to Pryor. Why doesn't this excuse get much currency?

Is Foreman known for telling tall-tales?


I don't doubt that Ali did not want a rematch: as others have mentioned, the chance of the ropa-a-dope working a second time is highly questionable.

But on the other hand, George didn't earn the rematch. Even after working with the legendary Gil Clancy, George couldn't beat Jimmy Young. He had hit his ceiling.
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Old 08-18-2019, 08:51 AM #10
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In a way Foreman saved his legacy by retiring for a decade. After losing to Young he was so far gone mentally, if he continued fighting he would probably have lost a rematch as well as against a very faded Ali. Then he would have faced Larry Holmes who would come up shortly after and I don't see him beating Larry at that point either. With all the added miles of boxing he would have retired not long after and never come back to regain a title.
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