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Old 07-01-2017, 03:12 PM #11
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Pac would have beaten the fraud Alvarez if he had fought him just before or just after Floyd did he was still pretty much at the top then... the MW division is really not all that strong picture Alvarez vs Ray Robinson or Carlos monzon or Hagler that's how really good he is, he's not... the sad state of boxing today everybody thinks these overnight wonders are pound-for-pound all-time greats not even close
??? Meth head lay off the dope....
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Old 07-01-2017, 03:16 PM #12
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Well, Manny in his prime, was a gazillion times better than Canelo is, was and will ever be. So his opinion holds a lot of weight. Just compare Manny-Cotto and Canelo-Cotto. that will tell a lot.

BTW I just watched the Pacquiao-Cotto fight in its entirety, for the first time, yesterday.

Between Dec 2008 and Nov 2009, Pacquiao completely obliterated and, for all intents and purposes, ended the careers, by KO, of Oscar de la Hoya, Ricky Hatton and Miguel Cotto. The consequence was either retirement or losing their edge, never ever being the top fighters they were before facing Manny.

The beatings he gave these three boxers are beatings they NEVER ever had with anybody else, not even close to it.

THAT PACQUIAO, pretty much the vintage 2009 Paquiao, who had it all: youth, speed, power, will, killer instinct, capability of KOing way bigger opponents, that Pacquiao was IMO, a top 10 ATG. If he was American, I am sure many people would have him as #1 of all time, I mean EIGHT titles in different weight divisions? Just incredible.

That Pacquiao, age 30-31, was invincible.

That Pacquiao would have obliterated Mayweather easily. That was his best version. NOBODY, absolutely nobody could touch that version of Manny. In a twilight-zone kind of scenario, where you'd put prime Manny vs. Canelo at welterweight both in their prime (yes I know Canelo is a natural middle or super-middleweight but the only way they could have fought on even terms would have been at welterweight), Manny would have put a beating on Canelo so bad, that Canelo would have become irrelevant, because he isn't American. Same scenario, BUT REALITY, just replace Mayweather Jr. for any of the three fighters I mentioned, De la Hoya, Hatton, Cotto, and THAT MANNY would have put a beating so bad on Floyd, that he would have made him irrelevant as well, for the rest of his career. That's why that coward Floyd avoided Manny in his prime, time after time. He only had the "guts" to face him when he was done, after the robbery and brutal KO I describe below. And of course, it had to be in his country, city, his referee, his judges, his drug testing agency, his punch stats providers, his gloves, his show, his network, his everything. Even that super-diminished version of Manny, sent that coward Floyd to the ropes time and time again. And, to many people OUTSIDE THE US, Manny won that fight AMOF. Even that Manny, light years away from his best version.

But of course, after 2009, came the two events that damaged him emotionally and physically/emotionally later on, for good, and he never ever was the same, he lost his confidence and killer instinct:

1) The HUGE ROBBERY vs. Bradley, Jun 9 2012. This was a pre-designed robbery to help Mayweather Jr "regain" the P4P king status. This robbery was a milestone in boxing. It ended the P4P kingdom of Pacquiao and it also showed that ANY African American with some capability of becoming a super-star, or one who was already one, like Bradley or Floyd, could "defeat him" by robbery, as long as they went the distance.

This robbery pretty much destroyed Manny's legacy and of course his confidence. Emotionally, he never was the same after this.

2) The HUGE TRAUMATIZING KO vs. Marquez Dec 8, 2012. In that fight, Manny appeared, for some reason, to have finally recovered his speed, power, killer instinct. He was beating JMM real bad, although the one with the bigger power was actually JMM, who hit him less but every time he hit Manny clean, one could see how he hurt him. JMM had already KD Manny in spectacular fashion in the 3d round. That was a warning, but Manny kept attacking relentlessly.

So that BRUTAL PUNCH at the end of the 6th round, where Manny even looked dead at some point, was what finished his career completely. He would never ever be the same.

All was left after that, was leftovers and little hints of what was, IMHO, the greatest boxer in his generation, by far. The most talented, spectacular, special, exotic, most fan-friendly one.

Bottom line, his opinion is totally respectable. To me, GGG HAS TO obliterate Canelo. Because even if he beats him up, he will not win a decision, because boxing today is a business and Canelo is better business than GGG. GGG has to do to Canelo, exactly what Manny did to Cotto. Destroy him slowly, until the referee has no choice but to stop the fight, even if he waited too long until the 12th, and Manny was clearly very worried to keep hitting Cotto so bad and doing permanent damage to him (Manny just stood motionless many times in the last rounds, with his hands down, like telling the referee, why don't you stop this massacre already?, same exact thing hapened vs. Margarito years later).

GGG has to obliterate Canelo, just as Manny did Cotto. Simple as that. That's what logic dictates.

Last edited by sterilizer; 07-01-2017 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 07-01-2017, 03:43 PM #13
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Originally Posted by Mirko Troll Cop View Post
PAC mentioned aggression... the same 12 rounds against Floyd where we only saw it in rounds 4 and 6... offensive punchers get tamed by those better than them with defense as well.

But his shoulder doe...
pretty will always beat pac 10 out of 10 period. a superior pure boxer most of the time beats the aggressor and in this case Canela is the better boxer.. and on top of that canela's neck is so massive like a gorilla's how do you knock out a thing like that??? but king GGG will get the job done.!!!
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Old 07-01-2017, 03:45 PM #14
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Originally Posted by sterilizer View Post
Well, Manny in his prime, was a gazillion times better than Canelo is, was and will ever be. So his opinion holds a lot of weight. Just compare Manny-Cotto and Canelo-Cotto. that will tell a lot.

BTW I just watched the Pacquiao-Cotto fight in its entirety, for the first time, yesterday.

Between Dec 2008 and Nov 2009, Pacquiao completely obliterated and, for all intents and purposes, ended the careers, by KO, of Oscar de la Hoya, Ricky Hatton and Miguel Cotto. The consequence was either retirement or losing their edge, never ever being the top fighters they were before facing Manny.

The beatings he gave these three boxers are beatings they NEVER ever had with anybody else, not even close to it.

THAT PACQUIAO, pretty much the vintage 2009 Paquiao, who had it all: youth, speed, power, will, killer instinct, capability of KOing way bigger opponents, that Pacquiao was IMO, a top 10 ATG. If he was American, I am sure many people would have him as #1 of all time, I mean EIGHT titles in different weight divisions? Just incredible.

That Pacquiao, age 30-31, was invincible.

That Pacquiao would have obliterated Mayweather easily. That was his best version. NOBODY, absolutely nobody could touch that version of Manny. In a twilight-zone kind of scenario, where you'd put prime Manny vs. Canelo at welterweight both in their prime (yes I know Canelo is a natural middle or super-middleweight but the only way they could have fought on even terms would have been at welterweight), Manny would have put a beating on Canelo so bad, that Canelo would have become irrelevant, because he isn't American. Same scenario, BUT REALITY, just replace Mayweather Jr. for any of the three fighters I mentioned, De la Hoya, Hatton, Cotto, and THAT MANNY would have put a beating so bad on Floyd, that he would have made him irrelevant as well, for the rest of his career. That's why that coward Floyd avoided Manny in his prime, time after time. He only had the "guts" to face him when he was done, after the robbery and brutal KO I describe below. And of course, it had to be in his country, city, his referee, his judges, his drug testing agency, his punch stats providers, his gloves, his show, his network, his everything. Even that super-diminished version of Manny, sent that coward Floyd to the ropes time and time again. And, to many people OUTSIDE THE US, Manny won that fight AMOF. Even that Manny, light years away from his best version.

But of course, after 2009, came the two events that damaged him emotionally and physically/emotionally later on, for good, and he never ever was the same, he lost his confidence and killer instinct:

1) The HUGE ROBBERY vs. Bradley, Jun 9 2012. This was a pre-designed robbery to help Mayweather Jr "regain" the P4P king status. This robbery was a milestone in boxing. It ended the P4P kingdom of Pacquiao and it also showed that ANY African American with some capability of becoming a super-star, or one who was already one, like Bradley or Floyd, could "defeat him" by robbery, as long as they went the distance.

This robbery pretty much destroyed Manny's legacy and of course his confidence. Emotionally, he never was the same after this.

2) The HUGE TRAUMATIZING KO vs. Marquez Dec 8, 2012. In that fight, Manny appeared, for some reason, to have finally recovered his speed, power, killer instinct. He was beating JMM real bad, although the one with the bigger power was actually JMM, who hit him less but every time he hit Manny clean, one could see how he hurt him. JMM had already KD Manny in spectacular fashion in the 3d round. That was a warning, but Manny kept attacking relentlessly.

So that BRUTAL PUNCH at the end of the 6th round, where Manny even looked dead at some point, was what finished his career completely. He would never ever be the same.

All was left after that, was leftovers and little hints of what was, IMHO, the greatest boxer in his generation, by far, the most talented, spectacular, special, exotic, most fan-friendly one.

Bottom line, his opinion is totally respectable. To me, GGG HAS TO obliterate Canelo. Because even if he beats him up, he will not win a decision, because boxing today is a business and Canelo is better business than GGG. GGG has to do to Canelo, exactly what Manny did to Cotto. Destroy him slowly, until the referee has no choice but to stop the fight, even if he waited too long until the 12th, and Manny was clearly very worried to keep hitting Cotto so bad and doing permanent damage to him (Manny just stood motionless many times in the last rounds, with his hands down, like telling the referee, why don't you stop this massacre already?, same exact thing hapened vs. Margarito years later).

GGG has to obliterate Canelo, just as Manny did Cotto. Simple as that. That's what logic dictates.
Manny was invincible in 08-09 but it wasn't because no one could touch him. He was getting touched just walking through punches. To be honest it didn't seem natural. Marquez 3 was a stark difference in his physical appearance and his ability to take a punch. I guess that's when the stories about him womanizing, drinking, and gambling came out. I still don't think he beat Mayweather during those years but he wouldn't have fought so tentative and would've made it more competitive.

The only way he would've beat Canelo was to bring down to WW. Mayweather probably get KO if he got him down to that weight.
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Old 07-01-2017, 03:47 PM #15
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Originally Posted by Realizniguhnit View Post
That fight wasn't a borefest...Matter of fact that was GGG's greatest boxing skill performance.
I fully agree.

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Old 07-01-2017, 03:55 PM #16
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Originally Posted by johny joe hdz View Post
pretty will always beat pac 10 out of 10 period. a superior pure boxer most of the time beats the aggressor and in this case Canela is the better boxer.. and on top of that canela's neck is so massive like a gorilla's how do you knock out a thing like that??? but king GGG will get the job done.!!!
Nelo's neck looks like that because his genetic was perhaps intended to be an 1 inch or 2 taller. Compared to his 7 brothers he is the shortest. If you look at the picture where all the brothers are posing together, Nelo's pants, although baggy, looks less muscular compared to his brothers. So he probably didn't eat correct growing up that growth spurt messed him up. This is why he seems stocky as his mother is a bit hefty... his upper torso is as big as his brothers, but his legs didn't grow as ideally intended to.
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Old 07-01-2017, 03:58 PM #17
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Originally Posted by Mighty_Windir View Post
Agreed, but will the pressure get to him? GGG's constant jab is another problem, uses it very well to set you up for the right hand.

Canelo seems to have take a liking to being on the ropes, and that's something he has to avoid with GGG, it worked with predictable opponents like Liam Smith and James Kirkland who were easy to read and counter, but GGG sometimes changes the angle of the punches he throws to make the opponent adjust to his liking.

A lot of factors in this bout, I believe the one who exploits them first has the advantage and the edge to take the W
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That will be his undoing with G, if he makes a habit of that.
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Old 07-01-2017, 04:03 PM #18
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Originally Posted by harwri008 View Post
Manny was invincible in 08-09 but it wasn't because no one could touch him. He was getting touched just walking through punches. To be honest it didn't seem natural. Marquez 3 was a stark difference in his physical appearance and his ability to take a punch. I guess that's when the stories about him womanizing, drinking, and gambling came out. I still don't think he beat Mayweather during those years but he wouldn't have fought so tentative and would've made it more competitive.

The only way he would've beat Canelo was to bring down to WW. Mayweather probably get KO if he got him down to that weight.
"No one could touch him" is a figure of speech. It means "no one was even as close as good as him." You are taking the phrase's meaning literally, which doesn't apply. Of course the opponents could "touch him" as in hit him clean. And they did. Because he fought LIKE A MAN, not like a coward, like Floyd always did.

Manny enjoyed trading with anyone, and his opponents when he was at his best, were almost always bigger than him. Taller. Bigger reach. And yet, he traded, he took risks.

You are implying that Manny was juicing, to be able to take those punches he took. Well, many say Floyd was juiced up vs. Manny. And still, he didn't do any damage to Manny when they finally "fought" --that is, when Manny tried to fight and Floyd clinched, ran and pot-shot--.

There's no proof Manny was juicing. Or Floyd for that matter. It's all hearsay. Manny never looked particularly muscular, bodybuilder-like, like Bradley and even Floyd did. Or JMM to a lesser degree, in their 4th meeting (Pac-JMM).

Juicing or not juicing, I still hold my opinion that that 2009 vintage Manny couldn't be touched, meaning he was the best by far (not that nobody could hit him clean). Many boxers have been actually caught juicing. And they never became top P4P fighters. Talent is needed as well, even if an athlete is using banned substances.

I think the GGG that obliterated Lemieux can't be touched at MW (again, can't be bested, not touched literally), just as the Manny that destroyed Cotto couldn't be either. I'm sure many people think the same way as I do. But Manny isn't American so there, I doubt it he will ever be put where he really belongs, a top 10 ATG. And if GGG destroys Canelo and shatters Hopkins' record later on, and retires undefeated, I'm sure he will not be put in there either. Just because he isn't American either.

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Old 07-01-2017, 04:07 PM #19
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Originally Posted by Realizniguhnit View Post
That fight wasn't a borefest...Matter of fact that was GGG's greatest boxing skill performance.
True. That's the fight that showed Golovkin's adaptability and skill in the ring. It convinced me that no one at 160 beats Golovkin. He basically delivered an 8 round beat down to a knock out artist. Beautiful fight.
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Old 07-01-2017, 05:20 PM #20
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Originally Posted by sterilizer View Post
Well, Manny in his prime, was a gazillion times better than Canelo is, was and will ever be. So his opinion holds a lot of weight. Just compare Manny-Cotto and Canelo-Cotto. that will tell a lot.

BTW I just watched the Pacquiao-Cotto fight in its entirety, for the first time, yesterday.

Between Dec 2008 and Nov 2009, Pacquiao completely obliterated and, for all intents and purposes, ended the careers, by KO, of Oscar de la Hoya, Ricky Hatton and Miguel Cotto. The consequence was either retirement or losing their edge, never ever being the top fighters they were before facing Manny.

The beatings he gave these three boxers are beatings they NEVER ever had with anybody else, not even close to it.

THAT PACQUIAO, pretty much the vintage 2009 Paquiao, who had it all: youth, speed, power, will, killer instinct, capability of KOing way bigger opponents, that Pacquiao was IMO, a top 10 ATG. If he was American, I am sure many people would have him as #1 of all time, I mean EIGHT titles in different weight divisions? Just incredible.

That Pacquiao, age 30-31, was invincible.

That Pacquiao would have obliterated Mayweather easily. That was his best version. NOBODY, absolutely nobody could touch that version of Manny. In a twilight-zone kind of scenario, where you'd put prime Manny vs. Canelo at welterweight both in their prime (yes I know Canelo is a natural middle or super-middleweight but the only way they could have fought on even terms would have been at welterweight), Manny would have put a beating on Canelo so bad, that Canelo would have become irrelevant, because he isn't American. Same scenario, BUT REALITY, just replace Mayweather Jr. for any of the three fighters I mentioned, De la Hoya, Hatton, Cotto, and THAT MANNY would have put a beating so bad on Floyd, that he would have made him irrelevant as well, for the rest of his career. That's why that coward Floyd avoided Manny in his prime, time after time. He only had the "guts" to face him when he was done, after the robbery and brutal KO I describe below. And of course, it had to be in his country, city, his referee, his judges, his drug testing agency, his punch stats providers, his gloves, his show, his network, his everything. Even that super-diminished version of Manny, sent that coward Floyd to the ropes time and time again. And, to many people OUTSIDE THE US, Manny won that fight AMOF. Even that Manny, light years away from his best version.

But of course, after 2009, came the two events that damaged him emotionally and physically/emotionally later on, for good, and he never ever was the same, he lost his confidence and killer instinct:

1) The HUGE ROBBERY vs. Bradley, Jun 9 2012. This was a pre-designed robbery to help Mayweather Jr "regain" the P4P king status. This robbery was a milestone in boxing. It ended the P4P kingdom of Pacquiao and it also showed that ANY African American with some capability of becoming a super-star, or one who was already one, like Bradley or Floyd, could "defeat him" by robbery, as long as they went the distance.

This robbery pretty much destroyed Manny's legacy and of course his confidence. Emotionally, he never was the same after this.

2) The HUGE TRAUMATIZING KO vs. Marquez Dec 8, 2012. In that fight, Manny appeared, for some reason, to have finally recovered his speed, power, killer instinct. He was beating JMM real bad, although the one with the bigger power was actually JMM, who hit him less but every time he hit Manny clean, one could see how he hurt him. JMM had already KD Manny in spectacular fashion in the 3d round. That was a warning, but Manny kept attacking relentlessly.

So that BRUTAL PUNCH at the end of the 6th round, where Manny even looked dead at some point, was what finished his career completely. He would never ever be the same.

All was left after that, was leftovers and little hints of what was, IMHO, the greatest boxer in his generation, by far. The most talented, spectacular, special, exotic, most fan-friendly one.

Bottom line, his opinion is totally respectable. To me, GGG HAS TO obliterate Canelo. Because even if he beats him up, he will not win a decision, because boxing today is a business and Canelo is better business than GGG. GGG has to do to Canelo, exactly what Manny did to Cotto. Destroy him slowly, until the referee has no choice but to stop the fight, even if he waited too long until the 12th, and Manny was clearly very worried to keep hitting Cotto so bad and doing permanent damage to him (Manny just stood motionless many times in the last rounds, with his hands down, like telling the referee, why don't you stop this massacre already?, same exact thing hapened vs. Margarito years later).

GGG has to obliterate Canelo, just as Manny did Cotto. Simple as that. That's what logic dictates.



why did Pacquiao totally refuse to rematch Cotto at 150 ?

THE only reason why they fought Tim Bradley the first time is because Pacquiao totally refused to fight a healthy Cotto

and for goodness sake, HOYA was DONE at 145

EVERY top welter would have beaten that shrink-wrapped emaciated version of Hoya..... Spence would have knocked him out, same with Brook/Thurman..... even the top JWW's would have beaten Hoya, Crawford would have stopped him, and so would Marquez.....

..... how the hell can you call Pacquiao "great" and "invincible" for those wins?

Pac never even fought a top5 opponent until Bradley..... he clearly avoided the run of #3 welters that popped up during that timeframe...... Mayweather fought all of them

when Pac was prime, and not matched against opponents who were disadvantaged on the scales, he could not separate himself from Marquez.

very little of what you wrote is true

the ONLY things that changed with Pac is, he stepped up his opponent selection, and he stopped throwing 1200+ punches per round

when Cotto was campaigning at 154, Pacquiao totally refused to fight him at 150..... Cotto refused that fight at 147, so Team Pacquiao passed on their first-pick opponent and fought Bradley instead

boxing is all about matchmaking, matchmaking is all about styles/timing/weight..... Pac pulled the little guys up and he dragged the big guys down, hence the term manny-weight, and he did not fight those guys when they were on top of their game

that is why they refused to fight a healthy Cotto..... despite the fact that Pac had already beaten Cotto, and despite the fact that Cotto was their first choice opponent, and an in-house fight

Pac is a terrific fighter, but he is much like Golovkin is some respects.... there is some truth, but there is also some myth..... your post centered around the myth
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