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Old 02-04-2020, 05:28 AM #21
NORMNEALON NORMNEALON is online now
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Originally Posted by TheMyspaceDayz View Post
Not looking for a wordy response from anyone here. This isn’t about me or anyone else. Let this message stand on its own.

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these guys do not understand what “orthodox” means. The word orthodox encompasses the word “traditional”, which means long established. Since the Philly Shell evolved from a style over a hundred years old it is orthodox by definition.
TRUTH . however in context although long established hasnt been used in its traditional context for a awhile and certainly unorthodox this day and age . Back then not so much . Can u really tell me the fighters I've listed are not unorthodox ?? I see 100% what u are saying tho .
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Old 02-04-2020, 05:34 AM #22
TheMyspaceDayz TheMyspaceDayz is offline
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Originally Posted by NORMNEALON View Post
TRUTH . however in context although long established hasnt been used in its traditional context for a awhile and certainly unorthodox this day and age . Back then not so much . Can u really tell me the fighters I've listed are not unorthodox ?? I see 100% what u are saying tho .
Today I would call the style old school. Not unorthodox. “Unorthodox” should be reserved for trail blazers, which Mayweather isn’t. Back in the day though it would have been rightfully called unorthodox because it was new then.
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Old 02-04-2020, 05:39 AM #23
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Originally Posted by Tony Trick-Pony View Post
I consider most techniques that aren't used very often as unorthodox. I consider Loma's slapping his opponents' gloves away as unorthodox since most fighters don't do this but I don't know. What do you guys think?
- -Gotta name with some history, and like young Cassius Clay running style, untold thousands of fighters have used it.

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Old 02-04-2020, 05:45 AM #24
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Today I would call the style old school. Not unorthodox. “Unorthodox” should be reserved for trail blazers, which Mayweather isn’t. Back in the day though it would have been rightfully called unorthodox because it was new then.
Like 1890s tommy ryan new then ?? I agree it's old school I just feel it's very unorthodox in comparison to today's " orthodox " style is Fighting tall behind a jab with solid simple footwork .
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Old 02-04-2020, 07:28 AM #25
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There's some good boxing being discussed in here, fellas.

I would say the Philly shell is unorthodox because it falls outside the modern day boxing manual. Mayweather is a tough one. He adapts his style to the situation at hand. At sometimes he may be more unorthodox, and sometimes more traditional. I think we as boxing fans, get caught up in the flashiness a boxer may have and automatically label it unorthodox. I think how the Philly shell is applied differently among its users, where some may more unorthodox than others.

An example of an unorthodox Philly shell would be the way James Toney applied it. He would lean his head forward, weave under, and swivel to safety, escaping towards the opponents back, where he was away from any offense. I'm not a boxing encyclopedia, but to me, that's unorthodox, as he's the only person I've seen apply the Philly Shell that way.
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Old 02-04-2020, 09:29 AM #26
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There are only two recent generation fighters I can remember that would qualify as unorthodox. Naseem Hamed and Roy Jones Jr.

To me, it's unorthodox if you can't train it.
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Old 02-04-2020, 12:45 PM #27
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Originally Posted by DumpkinsPlus5 View Post
There's some good boxing being discussed in here, fellas.

I would say the Philly shell is unorthodox because it falls outside the modern day boxing manual. Mayweather is a tough one. He adapts his style to the situation at hand. At sometimes he may be more unorthodox, and sometimes more traditional. I think we as boxing fans, get caught up in the flashiness a boxer may have and automatically label it unorthodox. I think how the Philly shell is applied differently among its users, where some may more unorthodox than others.

An example of an unorthodox Philly shell would be the way James Toney applied it. He would lean his head forward, weave under, and swivel to safety, escaping towards the opponents back, where he was away from any offense. I'm not a boxing encyclopedia, but to me, that's unorthodox, as he's the only person I've seen apply the Philly Shell that way.
I think this is spot-on. Toney really was crafty with his defense. I love to see a fighter get around to the opponent's back where they have zero opportunity. Excellent post!
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Old 02-04-2020, 06:11 PM #28
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For me top guys in no order off the top off my head :

Nicholino locche ( arguably top 3 best defensive fighters of all time ).

George Benton- not the goat by any means but he was using the shell back in the 40s . And he never got a title shot . The mayor of Philadelphia himself haha . Very very good fighter .

Jersey joe Walcott. Arguably a top 10 heavy all time . Overlooked by some as time goes by, but a GREAT fighter.

Old george foreman . Archie taught him this technique but he really started using it in his second career . Which was the greatest comeback of all time I feel like foreman's could be refered to as a cross arm variation . And although foreman in his second career ate alot of punches so iam not sure what it did for him ( but he never quit on his stool like roger Mayweather In the Chavez rematch ).

We can get really old school with Tommy ryan . He fought in the 1800s and used a crouching style shell defense . He was welterweight and middleweight world champ .

Archie moore . Need I say more ?? Arguably greatest light heavyweight of all time .

Joe frazier . One of the best left hooks of all time . One of the most popular practitioners of said defensive stance due to his win over ali .

James toney . One hell of a fighter . Anyone with boxing eyes watches toney and is impressed . What roy jones did to him was next level

Floyd mayweather . He didnt stay in the pocket as much as the other guys but floyd was also arguably the best defensive fighter of all time . He switched up orthodox stance with his shell / shoulder roll .

Ken Norton- not an all time great in any regard but he did beat ali once and gave him hell twice. Altho simular stance as frazier . He was a completely differnt fighter . Ken Norton was very underrated . His chin always seemed to fail when it mattered except vs ali .

The p4P king SRR . like mayweather he didnt always stay in the pocket, but he still applied the same technique . Even tho they both also switched with an orthodox stance.

The thing I love about this technique is rarely did u see two fighters do it the same . So many great fighters and coaches put their twist on it .

Eddie Futch was big on this and they actually called it the Michigan style defence. I've also heard variations of it called : crab shell defense, shoulder roll , cross arm defence are the main names for this style that come to mind . Good post , this is fun .
Wow, it goes all the way back to the 1800s? Haha. I didn't realize that. And thank you for the history lesson. Damn. Haha. Very impressive.
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Old 02-04-2020, 06:16 PM #29
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Originally Posted by TheMyspaceDayz View Post
Not looking for a wordy response from anyone here. This isn’t about me or anyone else. Let this message stand on its own.

Thread poster:

these guys do not understand what “orthodox” means. The word orthodox encompasses the word “traditional”, which means long established. Since the Philly Shell evolved from a style over a hundred years old it is orthodox by definition.
That makes sense. So unorthodox just means that it's something not established which would cut out just about everything. Haha. Every time I see a technique that I think is new, I get proven wrong by someone who names somebody who did it before them. Maybe instead of unorthodox, can we say, I don't know, a rare technique, not used very often? Although this will definitely take longer to type. Haha.
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Old 02-04-2020, 06:19 PM #30
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Originally Posted by NORMNEALON View Post
However seeing them come back and be bastardized is no good . As fun as bert cooper was, I was a fan . Frazier tried to make him copy his style and it didnt work to well for him . Although cooper got holy on short notice I think he proved that night that joe Frazier would have been a very tough fight for holy . Weve seen the shell be effective against all types of fighters it is a hard technique to learn , but it even harder to figure out . Fun question that I dont know the answer to off the top of my head .....when have we ever seen two fighters who use the philly shell square off ?? Becuase I can recall anything from the modern era of boxing ( let's say around the 30s , when the neutral corner became a thing ) and that says alot too , there were not many great shell fighters even in the day when it was most common . Who do u think used the shell the best ??
I think I'd go with Archie Moore. The Old Mongoose knew lots of little tricks in there that led him to several victories. I was watching something that pointed out another thing he did. It was a defensive move where he closed the gap and covered the opponent's arm when moving in or something. Can't recall exactly but it was pretty cool.
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