Why is Fighting Harada ranked under Eder Jofree?

[Anthony342]

And nobody gave a crap about unifying a title until Ali came back from exile as WBC Champion and fought WBA Champion Joe Frazier. That's when this all got started.

[Ben Bolt]

In hindsight, one has to give credit to The Ring (the inventor of ranking lists in sports) for how the mag acted in the 1960s.

Although the editor Nat Fleischer disliked Ali for turning to islam, The Ring kept recognizing him as the (true) World heavyweight champion during his exile 1967-69.
It wasn’t until early February 1970, a couple of weeks before the Frazier-Ellis fight, when Ali himself OK’ed that fight for being for the vacant title, that The Ring lifted the crown from his head.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Lol Ezzard Charles beat Wallcott 2×, Maxmuim 5×, Burley 2×, Moore 3×, Loyld Marshall 2×, Jimmy Bivins2× past prime Louis

Harada def ranks top 50 or so in my book but no way does he top 20 or 30 guys like Charles earned that.

Looks like Sissy knows how to search BoxRec.


So what are we supposed to do now, throw Sissy a parade?


LOL, I would LOVE to see the footage that shows Charles was on Harada's level. All that comes to mind, though, was when he got his shyte pushed in by Marciano. If that kind of swarmer can overwhelm him, how would he react of a Harada?

maybe BoxRec holds the answer? Or maybe the phonebook?

[Rusty Tromboni]

In hindsight, one has to give credit to The Ring (the inventor of ranking lists in sports) for how the mag acted in the 1960s.

Although the editor Nat Fleischer disliked Ali for turning to islam, The Ring kept recognizing him as the (true) World heavyweight champion during his exile 1967-69.
It wasn’t until early February 1970, a couple of weeks before the Frazier-Ellis fight, when Ali himself OK’ed that fight for being for the vacant title, that The Ring lifted the crown from his head.

Great post.

Nice to know they provided some logic and continuity.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Why doesn’t Lionel Rose rank higher than Harada? He dominated him in a fashion Harada didn’t come close to over Jofre.

Those fights were razor thin and arguable. The crowd go nuts every time Harada moves his hands and he fought a lot with his head and wrestling. Like I said, very close fights. I personally feel 1-1 is fair and that’s in Japan with Jofre dead at the weight and passed his prime.

Harada got robbed of his flyweight title and deserved the decision against Famechon the first fight but still didn’t have Jofre’s longevity, level of dominance or consistency.

Well said.


I do find it interesting that Harada beat a drained Jofre, Rose beat a drained Harada, Olivares beat a drained Rose, and Olivares lost due to having also out-grown the division.

Having the experience of wrestling, and coaching it, I can tell you, it would have really benefited Boxing to install more lower-weight divisions from the on-set. For as much as we glorify "the original eight", there really should have been closer to 12.

[Rusty Tromboni]

- -Nice Dewey eyed sentiment, but Harada fought thru Ali's first career.

Ali was stripped of WBA as soon as he signed the Liston rematch that turned out to be the sham it was predicted to be.

Ernie Terrell picked up the WBA to defend until Ali dethroned him and then Ali was stripped.

Joe Frazier picked up the New York belt and Jimmy Ellis the WBA and eventually whooped Ellis to become unified.

And that just the heavy division in that era.

Also the 140lb title been around since at lest the 1930s and the 130 title somewhere around then.

That's just my offhand recollection.

A very sobering insight.

I am a firm believer, though, that the lower weight divisions were established too far apart. Even the Jr. Ww division was clearly a necessity as early as Joe Gans. Packey McFarland is probably the greatest fighter to never be champion because no championship existed at his ideal weight - around 140 lbs.

[Blue54]

Looks like Sissy knows how to search BoxRec.


So what are we supposed to do now, throw Sissy a parade?


LOL, I would LOVE to see the footage that shows Charles was on Harada's level. All that comes to mind, though, was when he got his shyte pushed in by Marciano. If that kind of swarmer can overwhelm him, how would he react of a Harada?

maybe BoxRec holds the answer? Or maybe the phonebook?

I knew about Charles long before i started even useing boxrec and even so boxrec does help for certain guys like Langford,Gans and Greb who have little footage to none at all.

[Rusty Tromboni]

I knew about Charles long before i started even useing boxrec and even so boxrec does help for certain guys like Langford,Gans and Greb who have little footage to none at all.

I know I can be a massive ****. So let me step back and make this a more constructive discussion:

you read about things. Let other people form your thoughts. You didn't validate claims.

That's actually forgivable. Most of human history knowledge was orally or just made up on the spot. Then came the written word. This was a tremendous improvement. To such an overwhelming degree that we almost cannot even see its flaws.

But now, in the electronic age, we can really grill the facts.

Instead of depending on someone else's opinion of Charles, you can see him for yourself. Admittedly there's more missing footage than avaiable footage. That's very unfortunate. But we have about as much as we need to make a quality evaluation of him.

Similarly, Harada is available on film.


Harada is better. He isn't as tricky, or as multi-dimensional. He was pretty reckless - depending on chaos to overwhelm an opponent, while Charles was more sound and tactically-minded. Certainly didn't have as long a career.And Charles didn't try to rush through divisions the same way, preferring the long-game.
But watching Harada against Jofre and Famechon it's clear he's better than Charles.

Charles couldn't put away Joey fookin Maxim, for God's sake. I'm not a revisionist who says everyone was shyte, but I will question a fighter's hyped legacy when it's not supported by evidence. Famchon was far more athletic and stealthier than Maxim, he also had a punch with mustard on it. His size was what saved him against Harada. Harada would have never let a guy like Louis leave the ring on his feet.

Similar w/ Conn and Charles. We never saw the best of Conn, while Charles long overstayed his visit. But the small glimpse we have into what Conn's career might have been shows us a better fighter than anything all the spools of Charles show. But Charles gets more fan-fare because he was denied his Light HEavyweight crown and he stuck around for years and years and years.

[QueensburyRules]

- -Only a precious few put away Maxim.

That the great Ali couldn't put a dent in neon Leon much more telling of his level at that stage.

[Rusty Tromboni]

- -Only a precious few put away Maxim.

That the great Ali couldn't put a dent in neon Leon much more telling of his level at that stage.

Maxim was especially well managed by Kearns. I don't think he was bad. I actually really like his footwork, his jab, how he maintains himself throughout the fight: good stamina and technique. He was a tough man, and a true professional. He was smart, he worked hard, and saw things through. But he wasn't especially talented.

Bob Pastor is more reckless, kinda disregards proper form. But he's better, even if only because he's bigger, ballsier and more athletic. Conn stopped Pastor. I don't doubt that Conn would have stopped Maxim... and probably Moore, too.

As for Harada... can you imagine anyone else muscling Jofre up against the ropes? Sure, Jofre wasn't at his best. But can you imagine Olivares trying to pull the shyte he pulled on Rose against that Jofre? He'd get caught w/ the same punches Harada did. But while Harada shrugged them off, you know Olivares shytz himself. And Olivares was bigger than Harada.
Can you imagine Olivares beating Famechon? No way.

You can make an argument that Charles is on Olivares' level, based on film, but trying to put him on Harada's level takes it too far.