Gene Tunney vs Joe Frazier...........

[Stone Roses!]

Look at it this way, who did Lyle ever beat that was as good as Joe? We know Frazier beat better fighters than Lyle, right? People want to use the Foreman fight as an example of how a Lyle-Frazier fight might go. Problem is Lyle didn't fight anything like Foreman. George threw looping upper cuts and hooks when Frazier was bobbing down and chopping punches when he was coming up. Lyle fights in more a classical style using his jab and throwing straight punches and hooks. This would allow Frazier to get underneath and punish him much the way he did Ali in their first fight. I think we can both agree Lyle was NEVER as fast, tough or as good a fighter as Ali that night (even with his layoff). Lyle also had the bad habit of backing straight up with his chin unprotected which can be seen in many of his fights. That is suicide against a fighter who throws possibly the greatest heavyweight hook ever.

As far as Lyles power.....I think its good, but over rated for the reasons I already touched on. Ok, he dropped Foreman. He couldn't keep him there though and a lighter punching Ali put him down for the count. What does that say?

Lyle never beat anyone who was as good as Joe, although he has a few respectable wins ie Shavers, Mathis, Bonavena.

Fact is, Lyle was one of the biggest punchers in his era, certainly Top 5. Frazier only fought 1 fighter who had more punching power than Ron Lyle and he showed me nothing in those 2 bouts that will give me a reason to believe he would be able to handle Ron Lyle's power.

You say, Lyle's power is overrated, well then Frazier's chin is overrated. Here's a fighter who was dropped 6 times in 2 rounds and that is what certain posters on here believe to be a 'granite' chin? By that estimation his chin is certainly overrated.

Frazier's come forward, bullish, swarming style is a match made in heaven for a devastating puncher. Lyle doesn't need to 'have' Foreman's style to KO Frazier.

[JAB5239]

Lyle never beat anyone who was as good as Joe, although he has a few respectable wins ie Shavers, Mathis, Bonavena.

Fact is, Lyle was one of the biggest punchers in his era, certainly Top 5. Frazier only fought 1 fighter who had more punching power than Ron Lyle and he showed me nothing in those 2 bouts that will give me a reason to believe he would be able to handle Ron Lyle's power.

You say, Lyle's power is overrated, well then Frazier's chin is overrated. Here's a fighter who was dropped 6 times in 2 rounds and that is what certain posters on here believe to be a 'granite' chin? By that estimation his chin is certainly overrated.

Frazier's come forward, bullish, swarming style is a match made in heaven for a devastating puncher. Lyle doesn't need to 'have' Foreman's style to KO Frazier.

I don't consider Lyle that much more a puncher than Bonovena or Chuvalo and they weren't able to handle Frazier before he hit his stride.

It's neither her nor there, though. When comparing a fantasy fight I like to use the best versions of each fighter. In this case Im using Frazier from the first Ali fight. What fight do you think was Lyles best, and why?

[Stone Roses!]

I don't consider Lyle that much more a puncher than Bonovena or Chuvalo and they weren't able to handle Frazier before he hit his stride.

It's neither her nor there, though. When comparing a fantasy fight I like to use the best versions of each fighter. In this case Im using Frazier from the first Ali fight. What fight do you think was Lyles best, and why?

Personally, I believe Lyle's best performance was his fight with Ali. It was a very close fight upto the TKO.

In case of fantasy fights, I like to compare certain traits, skills and styles and not how they faired against certain fighters.

Again, Frazier showed me nothing in his 2 fights with Foreman that will lead me to believe he can handle a Lyle bomb.

[boxing boy]

Personally, I believe Lyle's best performance was his fight with Ali. It was a very close fight upto the TKO.

In case of fantasy fights, I like to compare certain traits, skills and styles and not how they faired against certain fighters.

Again, Frazier showed me nothing in his 2 fights with Foreman that will lead me to believe he can handle a Lyle bomb.

You do know the circumstances surronding the Foreman-Lyle fight?

Besides Foreman not fighting for 15 months.

Without getting into much detail Foreman was not mentally or physically fit to get into the ring with anybody,let alone Ron Lyle.Foreman was lucky to be 65% of himself when he fought Ron Lyle.A mentally fit and physically in shape Foreman would have destoyed Lyle easily without even getting hurt,let alone going down.

If your calculating Ron Lyle's performance against THAT George Foreman,you picked the wrong fight.I can get into alot more detail of how Foreman was mentally and physically for that fight.Not to mention not fighting for 15 months.

Now lets get back to the Frazier-Tunney fight my friend.

[JAB5239]

Personally, I believe Lyle's best performance was his fight with Ali. It was a very close fight upto the TKO.

Lets also remember that Ali came in at a career high in weight and was on the decline. frazier beat him in '71 when he was a much, much better fighter.

In case of fantasy fights, I like to compare certain traits, skills and styles and not how they faired against certain fighters.

Again, Frazier showed me nothing in his 2 fights with Foreman that will lead me to believe he can handle a Lyle bomb.

Lyle fought nothing like Foreman though so I can't understand your comparison. Why not make a comparison using the Ali fights, or better yet Jerry Quarry?

[Stone Roses!]

Lyle fought nothing like Foreman though so I can't understand your comparison. Why not make a comparison using the Ali fights, or better yet Jerry Quarry?

I never made the suggestion that Lyle and Foreman fought anything alike. I made the connection between their punching power and Frazier's inbability to take a dynamite punch.

Lets also remember that Ali came in at a career high in weight and was on the decline. frazier beat him in '71 when he was a much, much better fighter.

If we're going to use that as an excuse I can easliy say that Frazier fought a version of Ali that was suffering from ring rust and was still trying to adapt to a new style of fighting since his reflexes and speed had faded just a tad.

And the version of Ali that Frazier defeated wasn't much, much, much better than the version of Ali that Lyle fought.

[JAB5239]

I never made the suggestion that Lyle and Foreman fought anything alike. I made the connection between their punching power and Frazier's inbability to take a dynamite punch.

Yet Frazier kept getting back up, right? If you're going to this I will counter with Lyle's inability to take a body punch based on his fight with Cooney.

If we're going to use that as an excuse I can easliy say that Frazier fought a version of Ali that was suffering from ring rust and was still trying to adapt to a new style of fighting since his reflexes and speed had faded just a tad.

Ali had just destroyed two top rated contenders and his style had really not changed much at that point besides losing a bit of speed. If you watch the Terrell and Williams fights before he was banned he had already taken to sitting down on his punches more.

And the version of Ali that Frazier defeated wasn't much, much, much better than the version of Ali that Lyle fought.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this and think most others would too my man.

[Stone Roses!]

I wholeheartedly disagree with this and think most others would too my man.

Yet Frazier kept getting back up, right? If you're going to this I will counter with Lyle's inability to take a body punch based on his fight with Cooney.

No. You are assuming comparisons I never made. I made the connection because of Frazier's inability to take Foreman's power. Lyle's Power is right up their with the best of the era.

Ali had just destroyed two top rated contenders and his style had really not changed much at that point besides losing a bit of speed. If you watch the Terrell and Williams fights before he was banned he had already taken to sitting down on his punches more.

Ali defeated Quarry and Bonavena who were both not on Frazier's level in terms of ability or class. Truth is, if you watch the Bonavena fight, you must be blind not to realise that Ali was never the same. He lost a fair amount of his footwork and was getting tagged far more often. Again, Ali was still learning to adapt to these sudden changes when he got in the ring with Frazier.

Ali sat down on his punches vs Terrel because he wanted to punish Terrel for reasons we already know. He sat down on his punches vs Williams cause Williams was a shot fighter and Ali was magic on that night.

[JAB5239]

No. You are assuming comparisons I never made. I made the connection because of Frazier's inability to take Foreman's power. Lyle's Power is right up their with the best of the era.

Chuvalo and Bonovena were the equal of Lyle or close to it and neither could handle Frazier. Why are their fights not used as a comparison?

Ali defeated Quarry and Bonavena who were both not on Frazier's level in terms of ability or class. Truth is, if you watch the Bonavena fight, you must be blind not to realise that Ali was never the same. He lost a fair amount of his footwork and was getting tagged far more often. Again, Ali was still learning to adapt to these sudden changes when he got in the ring with Frazier.

He was still a better fighter for Frazier 1 than Lyle, and some of this can be attributed to Fraziers relentless pressure and ability to cut off the ring.

Ali sat down on his punches vs Terrel because he wanted to punish Terrel for reasons we already know. He sat down on his punches vs Williams cause Williams was a shot fighter and Ali was magic on that night.

While I agree with this, a case can be made and argued that Ali had already started to slow down at this point and was adapting by becoming a stronger puncher. I can cite many cases where a fighters style changed or slowed down while in his prime.

[Stone Roses!]

While I agree with this, a case can be made and argued that Ali had already started to slow down at this point and was adapting by becoming a stronger puncher. I can cite many cases where a fighters style changed or slowed down while in his prime.

I don't believe so. Ali showed no signs of slowing down vs either Terrel or Williams imo.

Chuvalo and Bonovena were the equal of Lyle or close to it and neither could handle Frazier. Why are their fights not used as a comparison?

They are not used comparatively because neither possess the power of Lyle. Oscar gave Frazier hell and I can imagine what a harder punching Lyle will do.

He was still a better fighter for Frazier 1 than Lyle, and some of this can be attributed to Fraziers relentless pressure and ability to cut off the ring.

Still doesn't change the fact Ali was adapting to his faded reflexes when Smoking Joe fought him.