Why Jack Johnson is Not as Great as You We’re Told

[GhostofDempsey]

I'd suggest doing some more reading.

I believe it is a mistake to judge a man based off of what he is not trying to do.

What was he not trying to do?

[billeau2]

Excellent posts. Do modern guys who KD opponents with a jab do it differently? Or just have really fast ones, etc.?

Sorry did not see this post. Its a different dynamic. When you pronate the arm, and extend it while shifting forwards you are bringing into play momentum from various sources. The twist at the end, something Kid McCoy did with a corkscrew punch, before the modern jab, has an effect of cutting into the target, by creating more momentum on the pronation/twist. Karate has a similar idea with the reverse punch which brings more force into the punch with the twist and locks the hand into position for a split second.

The jab itself depends on the shoulder moving free and the weight settling as the punch extends. the speed of this movement = momentum or force. So you can crack it like a whip, or drive it fast fowards like Liston.

A proper lead does not depend on momentum, rather it depends on the movement of the body as a whole, the weight dropping and the arm extending into the target. Look at a video of a Wing Chun Punch to get some idea. Bruce Lee's one inch punch, is a perfect example. The idea is to drive the body foward just enough to transfer weight, then drop the weight fowards and extend the arm like an engine piston. You need the transfer of the body's kinetic energy to be in the hand when it strikes. The body must also be properly aligned so the energy goes into the target and is not lost through disjointed elbows, bent wrists, twisted knees, etc. There is a snap on the end at times, but the Knockout comes with the accuracy of hitting the target right on "the button." When the chin is caught, straight it cannot recede back to take the force, so the brain gets bounced against the back of the skull and then the front, short circuiting the opponent for the KD.

Quite simply, when one wears a big glove, it has the effect of putting a battery charger on your car, with a rubber guard upon the clamp! It won't transfer the electrons into the battery. This is why a lot of martial artists do lousy with gloves BTW. Hope this helps.

[johnbook]

Sorry did not see this post. Its a different dynamic. When you pronate the arm, and extend it while shifting forwards you are bringing into play momentum from various sources. The twist at the end, something Kid McCoy did with a corkscrew punch, before the modern jab, has an effect of cutting into the target, by creating more momentum on the pronation/twist. Karate has a similar idea with the reverse punch which brings more force into the punch with the twist and locks the hand into position for a split second.

The jab itself depends on the shoulder moving free and the weight settling as the punch extends. the speed of this movement = momentum or force. So you can crack it like a whip, or drive it fast fowards like Liston.

A proper lead does not depend on momentum, rather it depends on the movement of the body as a whole, the weight dropping and the arm extending into the target. Look at a video of a Wing Chun Punch to get some idea. Bruce Lee's one inch punch, is a perfect example. The idea is to drive the body foward just enough to transfer weight, then drop the weight fowards and extend the arm like an engine piston. You need the transfer of the body's kinetic energy to be in the hand when it strikes. The body must also be properly aligned so the energy goes into the target and is not lost through disjointed elbows, bent wrists, twisted knees, etc. There is a snap on the end at times, but the Knockout comes with the accuracy of hitting the target right on "the button." When the chin is caught, straight it cannot recede back to take the force, so the brain gets bounced against the back of the skull and then the front, short circuiting the opponent for the KD.

Quite simply, when one wears a big glove, it has the effect of putting a battery charger on your car, with a rubber guard upon the clamp! It won't transfer the electrons into the battery. This is why a lot of martial artists do lousy with gloves BTW. Hope this helps.

thanks much.

[Marchegiano]

What was he not trying to do?

What do you know of defensive fighting from a historical perspective?

I just need to know where to begin to explain as best I can what Jack means to do and what isn't yet apart of boxing or more often than not the case is actually it's been apart of boxing but isn't culturally acceptable at that time or with in rules.

[GhostofDempsey]

What do you know of defensive fighting from a historical perspective?

I just need to know where to begin to explain as best I can what Jack means to do and what isn't yet apart of boxing or more often than not the case is actually it's been apart of boxing but isn't culturally acceptable at that time or with in rules.

Defense in his day was largely clinching. Seeing how he often had a distinct size advantage over his opponents, it was a tactic he used to great effect. He had good footwork for a HW of his day. But again, his size and the marginal or undersized quality of his opposition afforded him many of his wins.

[Anthony342]

Sorry did not see this post. Its a different dynamic. When you pronate the arm, and extend it while shifting forwards you are bringing into play momentum from various sources. The twist at the end, something Kid McCoy did with a corkscrew punch, before the modern jab, has an effect of cutting into the target, by creating more momentum on the pronation/twist. Karate has a similar idea with the reverse punch which brings more force into the punch with the twist and locks the hand into position for a split second.

The jab itself depends on the shoulder moving free and the weight settling as the punch extends. the speed of this movement = momentum or force. So you can crack it like a whip, or drive it fast fowards like Liston.

A proper lead does not depend on momentum, rather it depends on the movement of the body as a whole, the weight dropping and the arm extending into the target. Look at a video of a Wing Chun Punch to get some idea. Bruce Lee's one inch punch, is a perfect example. The idea is to drive the body foward just enough to transfer weight, then drop the weight fowards and extend the arm like an engine piston. You need the transfer of the body's kinetic energy to be in the hand when it strikes. The body must also be properly aligned so the energy goes into the target and is not lost through disjointed elbows, bent wrists, twisted knees, etc. There is a snap on the end at times, but the Knockout comes with the accuracy of hitting the target right on "the button." When the chin is caught, straight it cannot recede back to take the force, so the brain gets bounced against the back of the skull and then the front, short circuiting the opponent for the KD.

Quite simply, when one wears a big glove, it has the effect of putting a battery charger on your car, with a rubber guard upon the clamp! It won't transfer the electrons into the battery. This is why a lot of martial artists do lousy with gloves BTW. Hope this helps.

Interesting you mention rubber guard, as that has become a major strategy among Brazilian Jiu Jitsu masters in more recent years.

[Anthony342]

So what is the main argument here? That Jack Johnson was great for his time, but is now not an ATG? That's he's just a pioneer, because he's the first black world heavyweight boxing champion, but overall was never really that good? Then why the biographies and documentaries on the guy and why is he always mentioned among the greats? Some people here are making him sound overrated, like he should be more in the Aaron Pryor or Arturo Gatti category.

Or is it more he was good in the early days, when technique hadn't yet evolved as much, like the early days of the UFC, when the Gracies dominated before everyone else caught up or when Ronda Rousey was dominant, before a former boxer and then another grappler with boxing skills kept the fight on the feet and was also able to get the TKO?

[Marchegiano]

Defense in his day was largely clinching. Seeing how he often had a distinct size advantage over his opponents, it was a tactic he used to great effect. He had good footwork for a HW of his day. But again, his size and the marginal or undersized quality of his opposition afforded him many of his wins.

I apologize, I did a poor job asking that question.

I meant more the evolution of defense rather than where defense was at his time. To be honest I am struggling to find the proper wording for this....I might end up posting a very long post, don't take that as ranting or angry I'd just be trying to hit all the marks that way I get you covered.


So not so much in ring examples of what worked and what didn't or in ring explanations as to why what worked worked but rather out of ring examples and explanations as to why fighters felt pressure to fight a certain way and how those pressures changed by time, nation, and race.

Does that make sense?

[Marchegiano]

Sorry did not see this post. Its a different dynamic. When you pronate the arm, and extend it while shifting forwards you are bringing into play momentum from various sources. The twist at the end, something Kid McCoy did with a corkscrew punch, before the modern jab, has an effect of cutting into the target, by creating more momentum on the pronation/twist. Karate has a similar idea with the reverse punch which brings more force into the punch with the twist and locks the hand into position for a split second.

The jab itself depends on the shoulder moving free and the weight settling as the punch extends. the speed of this movement = momentum or force. So you can crack it like a whip, or drive it fast fowards like Liston.

A proper lead does not depend on momentum, rather it depends on the movement of the body as a whole, the weight dropping and the arm extending into the target. Look at a video of a Wing Chun Punch to get some idea. Bruce Lee's one inch punch, is a perfect example. The idea is to drive the body foward just enough to transfer weight, then drop the weight fowards and extend the arm like an engine piston. You need the transfer of the body's kinetic energy to be in the hand when it strikes. The body must also be properly aligned so the energy goes into the target and is not lost through disjointed elbows, bent wrists, twisted knees, etc. There is a snap on the end at times, but the Knockout comes with the accuracy of hitting the target right on "the button." When the chin is caught, straight it cannot recede back to take the force, so the brain gets bounced against the back of the skull and then the front, short circuiting the opponent for the KD.

Quite simply, when one wears a big glove, it has the effect of putting a battery charger on your car, with a rubber guard upon the clamp! It won't transfer the electrons into the battery. This is why a lot of martial artists do lousy with gloves BTW. Hope this helps.

No offense to anyone else but this fella is my favorite poster on this forum. I usually am left kicked back in thought after reading a billeau post. Often I even forget to give him the courtesy of a response because I'll be there in thought until a distraction pulls my attention from this place.

This is both an acknowledgement and apology for that. I do mean to respond I just forget to and that silence is not disrespect but rather upmost respect.

That said, only thing I can add to this is if anyone want science's explanation take a look at kinesiology more specifically kinematic chains.

[billeau2]

Interesting you mention rubber guard, as that has become a major strategy among Brazilian Jiu Jitsu masters in more recent years.

Anthony, correct me if im wrong: Isn't the rubber guard something Eddie Bravo invented?