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Old 01-18-2019, 08:08 AM #51
Mastrangelo Mastrangelo is online now
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If it's so easy then why hasn't anyone else managed to do it?

If its so easy to beat 10 guys ranked #1 at the weight class and 7 P4P Top 10 guys across 5 weight classes then how come no one else has?
No one says it's easy to do and no one argues He's great. It's not easy to win any title in boxing.
There are levels of achievements, accomplishments and when You try to put yourself as TBE, or if You want to argue He can't be beated because He wasn't beaten(Very poor argument imo) - I think any boxing fans should understand how incredible standards You're going to be held to then.

Is it easy to win title at 50 years old like Hopkins? No. Does it mean You can't argue other fighters were greater?
Is it easy to move up from 175 to HW, win a belt - and move back down to 175 to defend championship then, like Roy? No. does it mean You can't argue others were greater?
..and so on, so on. Many fighters did things Floyd didn't.

I'm not sure what's Your point, Iron. Floyd was great fighter, all I say is that in great history of boxing, other fighters achieved more impressive feats, proved themselves against higher level of talent - and all things considered, undefeated record is not a great support to have to say that You are THE Greatest.
Otherwise, We probably have to put Calzaghe in that argument also.
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Old 01-18-2019, 09:46 AM #52
IronDanHamza IronDanHamza is online now
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Originally Posted by Mastrangelo View Post
No one says it's easy to do and no one argues He's great. It's not easy to win any title in boxing.
There are levels of achievements, accomplishments and when You try to put yourself as TBE, or if You want to argue He can't be beated because He wasn't beaten(Very poor argument imo) - I think any boxing fans should understand how incredible standards You're going to be held to then.

Is it easy to win title at 50 years old like Hopkins? No. Does it mean You can't argue other fighters were greater?
Is it easy to move up from 175 to HW, win a belt - and move back down to 175 to defend championship then, like Roy? No. does it mean You can't argue others were greater?
..and so on, so on. Many fighters did things Floyd didn't.

I'm not sure what's Your point, Iron. Floyd was great fighter, all I say is that in great history of boxing, other fighters achieved more impressive feats, proved themselves against higher level of talent - and all things considered, undefeated record is not a great support to have to say that You are THE Greatest.
Otherwise, We probably have to put Calzaghe in that argument also.
My point is what Floyd did in his career was great. But seemingly you agree? It felt as if you were playing down his accomplishments earlier and implying that it's not a difficult task to do what he's done.

Rankings are far from the be all and end all, but there are no fighters in modern history and possibly in history in general who have beaten more #1 ranked fighters than Floyd has. So, to downplay that is silly IMO. Like I said, if it was so easy to do then endless fighters would have.

As for Calzaghe, the difference between him and Floyd is Calzaghe barely beat any ranked fighters at all much less highly ranked guys. So it's night and day difference.
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Old 01-18-2019, 11:22 AM #53
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My point is what Floyd did in his career was great. But seemingly you agree? It felt as if you were playing down his accomplishments earlier and implying that it's not a difficult task to do what he's done.
Right.
I kind of downplay his accomplishment in terms of TBE status. He's great, but that's such a high standards with the history of the sport being so long and great.
He did great, difficult things. There were fighters who challanged themselves more, beat better fighter and achieved more difficult things.
So the point isn't whether He's great. Point is whether there are even Great-er fighters.


Mostly - since the topic is about who'd beat Floyd - I try to show how naive it is to think that no one would beat him (like some seem to believe), just because He never lost.
There's another level that He never stepped up to. Everyone would agree that he never fought guy on the level of prime Duran, prime Ray Leonard, prime Hearns - right?
Other great fighters lost. He'd lose too. Doesn't mean He's not amazing talent, that's just boxing.
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Old 01-18-2019, 03:41 PM #54
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--- Hell, the sweet thing shat himself over prime Pak, Marg, Oscar rematch, and after calling out Winky Wright, team Wright showed up at Top Rank contract in hand.

Nobody could find him because he fled out the rear exit for the hills for a month!
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Old 01-18-2019, 04:18 PM #55
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Right.
I kind of downplay his accomplishment in terms of TBE status. He's great, but that's such a high standards with the history of the sport being so long and great.
He did great, difficult things. There were fighters who challanged themselves more, beat better fighter and achieved more difficult things.
So the point isn't whether He's great. Point is whether there are even Great-er fighters.


Mostly - since the topic is about who'd beat Floyd - I try to show how naive it is to think that no one would beat him (like some seem to believe), just because He never lost.
There's another level that He never stepped up to. Everyone would agree that he never fought guy on the level of prime Duran, prime Ray Leonard, prime Hearns - right?
Other great fighters lost. He'd lose too. Doesn't mean He's not amazing talent, that's just boxing.
Oh of course. I would never suggest Mayweather is unbeatable. No fighter is.

Nor would I suggest Mayweather is the greatest fighter ever.

I do think he'd be very hard to beat, though. Especially at 130 lbs.
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Old 01-18-2019, 05:38 PM #56
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--- Jesus Chavez was blasting him pretty good until Ronny Sheilds pulled the plug for illicit reasons boxing is known for.

Pretty much cowered on the ropes against Oscar who let his hands and landed the best punches. Even his daddy said Oscar whooped him.

Take him out of MGM and Nevada and he melts like the wicked witch of Oz...
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Old 01-18-2019, 11:17 PM #57
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Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post
Oh of course. I would never suggest Mayweather is unbeatable. No fighter is.

Nor would I suggest Mayweather is the greatest fighter ever.

I do think he'd be very hard to beat, though. Especially at 130 lbs.
So is the consensus that Floyd moved up in weight when there were tougher challenges to be had at the weight classes he was already at during those times or did he move up and face the better challenges at the time?

I know you were saying Mosley and Pacquiao were their faults as well, in terms of one pricing himself out and the other not agreeing to drug testing conditions, so what's the story on the rest of Floyd's career here?
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Old 01-19-2019, 04:22 AM #58
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So is the consensus that Floyd moved up in weight when there were tougher challenges to be had at the weight classes he was already at during those times or did he move up and face the better challenges at the time?

I know you were saying Mosley and Pacquiao were their faults as well, in terms of one pricing himself out and the other not agreeing to drug testing conditions, so what's the story on the rest of Floyd's career here?
Certainly at 130 and 135. He without doubt fought the best. Only fight that should have happened that didn't was Stevie Johnston.

At 140, he wanted Kosta Tszyu, but politics got in the way mostly. Tszyu was past his best and riddled with injuries despite being the man at 140 so realistically I'm not suprised Kosta wasn't overly interested.

147-154 he fought a lot of good guys. The big fight planned at the time in 2006 was Floyd vs Zab Judah. Both P4P fighters at the time. Obviously Judah lost to Baldomir which put a massive spanner in the works.

Only fight Floyd missed at 147 IMO was Margarito. Floyd was reluctant to take that fight for whatever reason.

Realistically this notion of he picked easy fights to stay unfefeated is massively overstated.

Like I mentioned previously, there are pretty much no fighters in history who beat more guys ranked #1 at the weight class than Floyd. Of course that's all relative and doesn't make him the greatest or even close to it by anu stretch but it is still damn impressive to do that across 5 weight classes no less. Floyd was Champion at 5 weights, 130, 135, 147 and 154 he was Lineal Champion. So, what is Floyd just the luckiest cherrypicker ever?

How do you become champion in 5 weights, 4 of which Lineal, beat 10 guys ranked #1 and 7 guys ranked in the Top 10 P4P by cherrypicking all easy fights? Makes no sense.
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Old 01-19-2019, 05:08 AM #59
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Certainly at 130 and 135. He without doubt fought the best. Only fight that should have happened that didn't was Stevie Johnston.
He didn't fight Freitas nor Casamayor.
Easy to dismiss those fights now - as Floyd had better carerr - but there's a reason You fight a fight.
Casamayor was't easy for anyone - and there was talk that at a time Floyd's team(family) didn't want him to fight southpaw.
Freitas was very tricky fight for all pure boxers - with his long arms, athlethicism and deceptive ring-smarts.

At 140, He missed up on Tszyu. Didn't fight Hatton - but I saw interview with Floyd when He said that Ricky's team didn't want it - I believe that, knowing what We know about Frank Warren and the way He manages his fighters.
Didn't fight Cotto, but I'm almost 100% certain it was down to Top Rank, don't think They would've wanted to put Cotto in with Floyd at a time.

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Only fight Floyd missed at 147 IMO was Margarito. Floyd was reluctant to take that fight for whatever reason.
Oh, I disagree here. He hardly fought anyone at that weight!
Margarito, Paul Williams, Clottey, Younger Mosley, Prime Pacquiao, Peak Cotto...
Then, after his come back - He didn't fight anyone who was considered truly elite.
He picked guys like Ortiz, Guerrero, Maidana, Berto... All that while guys like Danny Garcia, Shawn Porter, Keith Thurman, Kell Brook were all around.

So yeah, I honestly think He was very carefully managed for big portion of his career.
There're always explanations. Business explanations in particular - but reality is, He avoided all of the most talented fighters at Welterweight, or caught them way past their prime.

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How do you become champion in 5 weights, 4 of which Lineal, beat 10 guys ranked #1 and 7 guys ranked in the Top 10 P4P by cherrypicking all easy fights? Makes no sense.
Did He really beat 10 guys ranked #1?
You wrote it couple times. I might be wrong, but it seems a bit off to me.
Unless You mean They were #1 in some time in their career, not necessary when Floyd fought them?
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Old 01-19-2019, 05:43 AM #60
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He didn't fight Freitas nor Casamayor.
Easy to dismiss those fights now - as Floyd had better carerr - but there's a reason You fight a fight.
Casamayor was't easy for anyone - and there was talk that at a time Floyd's team(family) didn't want him to fight southpaw.
Freitas was very tricky fight for all pure boxers - with his long arms, athlethicism and deceptive ring-smarts.

At 140, He missed up on Tszyu. Didn't fight Hatton - but I saw interview with Floyd when He said that Ricky's team didn't want it - I believe that, knowing what We know about Frank Warren and the way He manages his fighters.
Didn't fight Cotto, but I'm almost 100% certain it was down to Top Rank, don't think They would've wanted to put Cotto in with Floyd at a time.


Oh, I disagree here. He hardly fought anyone at that weight!
Margarito, Paul Williams, Clottey, Younger Mosley, Prime Pacquiao, Peak Cotto...
Then, after his come back - He didn't fight anyone who was considered truly elite.
He picked guys like Ortiz, Guerrero, Maidana, Berto... All that while guys like Danny Garcia, Shawn Porter, Keith Thurman, Kell Brook were all around.

So yeah, I honestly think He was very carefully managed for big portion of his career.
There're always explanations. Business explanations in particular - but reality is, He avoided all of the most talented fighters at Welterweight, or caught them way past their prime.


Did He really beat 10 guys ranked #1?
You wrote it couple times. I might be wrong, but it seems a bit off to me.
Unless You mean They were #1 in some time in their career, not necessary when Floyd fought them?
Floyd wanted Frietas. HBO wanted Floyd vs Casamayor but both parties claimed the other wouldn't agree terms.

Of course fights didn't happen at 147. But what I mean is the only one Floyd was at fault for was Margarito. Margarito was on the table in 2006 and Floyd turned it down.

Unlike Williams and Clottey who were never realistic options.

Mosley had a chance to fight Floyd in 2006 but turned it down and Pacquaio that's one not worth opening.

Pretty easy to say Porter, Kell Brook, Thurman etc were options but they never were ever options. That's just hindsight being 20-20. At the time of all those fights except Andre Berto, the guys Floyd fought were higher ranked than those guys you listed.

He didn't avoid the fighters you listed that's the thing. He avoided Margarito I will agree with that. Not the others.

As for Floyd beating 10 #1 ranked guys. No I mean at the time and at the weight being fought at.

130;

Hernandez
Corrales

135;

Castillo
Castillo

140;

Gatti (Tszyu Ring Champion so could argue Gatti was actually #2 but how Ring rankings are structured it goes Ring Champ then #1, #2 etc so fair if you decide to not include Gatti

147;

Baldomir
Mosley
Pacquaio

154;

Cotto
Canelo

That's 10. All ranked #1 at the weight class being fought in at the time.

If we count the number of Top 5 guys he beat at the time he fought them then it increases by a lot.

Last edited by IronDanHamza; 01-19-2019 at 05:45 AM.
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