Has Deontay Wilder diminished himself by trying to box?

[iamboxing]

When Fury shows off his superior boxing skills he'll revert back to his caveman style.

[sunny31]

We all know Wilder throws them windmill bombs with the power of Baron Samedi behind them. He can literally bludgeon people's souls from their bodies. We've witnessed it happen.

However in recent times, maybe since becoming champion, for one reason or another Wilder's gameplan has changed in an attempt to incorporate more boxing and strategy. In all of his recent fights this has resulted in several rounds of stinking the joint out and losing many of those rounds. Wilder quite simply doesn't have a lot of intelligence, inside or outside of the ring.

So why have they decided to do this when it isn't effective, given the tools at their disposal? Guarenteed if Wilder had a pure boxing match with any of the other top fighters at his weight he would lose embarrasingly. It's akin to plowing a field whilst using a ballistic missile to pull the plow.

Why not just stick to what works, bombing people out from the opening bell? Is it a forced changed because of age or stamina issues? Why stumble around on the ropes taking unnecessary punishment for 6-7 rounds before opening up, if it can be done from the opening bell?

You are only focussing on what he loses by not being more aggressive, but what does he gain from being less? Boxing is sometimes as much about hiding your flaws as it is showing your strengths.

His style isn't indicative of dominating the action, it's about check mate, and that doesn't mean he's looking for one shot, but he's looking to set up the hurtful shots. He understands his limitations, prob from sparring world class fighters so he tries to nullify those weaknesses in my opinion.

His shots wouldn't be fast and unpredictable if he threw too many, as a fighter your eyes start adjusting, and that's why he is effective, the speed and unpredictability of his shots, some come around the sides, and all of a sudden he'll shoot up the middle, it works because he really has impressive handspeed, underrated in fact.

At some point he won't land that shot and prob lose, but it will take a really good performance to do it, maybe Fury.

[Marchegiano]

He's not changed his game plan even a little bit. That super wide stance is for boxing is it?

Bit like the 3G is a Mexican style init?

I don't mean to insult y'all, this time, but it's very clear your understanding of boxing is...well an understanding of boxing, but your understanding of the form you probably refer to as punching is absolutely ****....even if this is a troll thread.


On the very basic level of the two major forms, boxing and punching, you have a term issue. If one were to search boxing as a form you'd get plenty of all inclusive texts covering the sport usually ranging from 1888 to the present. If you look up punching you're going to find a whole lot of nothing to do with boxing at all because it's a term widely used to describe the action not the form or style in the sport. You can search a modified term like "boxing punchers" or some such and get tidbits here and there. You can refine your search around those words, boxing and punching or slugging, brawling, whatever really, until the cows come home you're never going to find very important terms.


It's a bit like searching for an explanation for a phantom overhead. Since Ali's phantom is so popular and since overhands are so popular and well known it will be difficult and take effort to word the question in such a way that the search engine actually delivers an explanation as to what a phantom overhead is. Of course a search being a search it will give you lazy answers and if you know nothing or little then an explanation covering Ali's phantom and an explanation covering overhands can be cobbled together to form an explanation for a phantom overhead that does not explain the technique called phantom overhead in any regard.

This is a good example for most of what I read out of youse childrens. It's not that you're wrong per se so much as mislead. What you were taught youse do know well, but what you were taught is absolute horse****. I don't care what corner gym you spent time in either, it's still horse****.

If you search Mendoza School you're likely to find little. Maybe some anecdotes quickly.

If you search Pygmachia you're likely to find little, maybe some anecdotes.

Boxing, as in points boxing, hit and don't be hit back, counters, slipping, moving, proper elusive footwork, and proper elusive posture and position is Mendoza School. Invented in the 18th century to generate ticket sales.

Pygmachia comes from ancient Sparta. The Spartans thought helmets were for sissies so they thickened their skulls, improved their blows, and did without. The shield is meant to be your left, your sword is your right. The shield is all you need to protect yourself. The sword is all you need to finish anyman. It was so successful on the battlefield it was adopted by nearly every city-state and then of course Rome who renamed it Pyx.

At no point in searching any term relative to "boxing" or "punching" are you going to run into Mendoza School or Pygmachia. Which is why your understanding of the two very different forms that pull from the same fundamental techniques and employ them completely differently is all mixed up.



Alright, so to answer the question:

Why stumble around on the ropes taking unnecessary punishment for 6-7 rounds before opening up, if it can be done from the opening bell?

Because some high level techniques of Pygmachia, or punching if you prefer, do absolutely require a ground work and the groundwork does absolutely require you give up elusive and defensive posture and position.

I did not mention the phantom overhead just to compare it to Ali. It is a technique that does absolutely require what you'd probably refer to as baiting rounds.

Marciano did it often. Load a hook and make it obvious. Throw the obvious hook and let them decide how they are going to neutralize it. If they want to go punch for punch and trade then no more work needs to be done. If they move or guard, go defensive in anyway, more work is required. Throw the hook, let them move, throw the hook, let them move, keep going until is simply part of the rhythm of the fight. No one's thinking about it anymore it's just muscle memory now. Jango, load the same hook, let them react, throw the hook with the same beginning trajectory while positioning the off hand for a power shot, usually uppercut. If they take their eyes off the hook while moving in reaction to a hook and watch the off hand or try to capitalize on the off hand being in strike position rather than shield position then change the trajectory of the hook mid punch to fly not just over the off hand but over your entire head. The eyes can't be in two places at once, the posture is bad for both strikes.

This is the punch that dropped Tyson Fury. Cunningham isn't a pygmachia but it is one sport for a reason, they all use the techniques they just employ them differently. If Cunningham was better or Tyson worse it would have come earlier. If Tyson was better and Cunningham worse it would have taken more ground work.

I should also note this is different from Mike Tyson's home run hook which used his own posture as bait.


So, that said, Steve was much better than Fury was skillswise. That's why Tyson didn't use skills to beat him. Wilder was not much better than Ortiz skillswise. It was a close fight and so his **** barely worked against Ortiz.

If the boxer is just going to give the puncher their fight it will be a short night, but at this level who enjoys that sort of juxtaposition? Wilder is not a proven veteran gone up in weight fighting young hopefuls who had just punched themselves in the face a few years prior and had plenty of learning and physical development to get done.

[Zn1]

I liked that post ^^

[Real King Kong]

Even with technical flaws and relying on power, as a strategy it's better to try and pick his moments. Even if he doesn't have great timing it's less predictable. With Wilder I think his jab and left hook have improved. His gameplan for the Ortiz fight was good for the skillset he has, trying to force an early KO would've gotten him knocked out.

pretty much this. wilder isn't gonna win the majority of rounds against the top hws no matter what strategy he uses...he's better off trying to disguise his big shots than to swing wild. his jab isn't bad either, and his straight right is more effective than the windmill imo.

[Marchegiano]

I liked that post ^^

it's a bit **** and disconnected, but I'm glad you liked it.