Who is the lineal HW champion?

[aboutfkntime]

There have been longer layoffs than two years before, so that part is irrelevant.

The only argument is whether he actually retired. He tweeted that he was retired, then tweeted that it was just a joke. So it's not a cut and dry situation.

I personally thought the title should have been considered vacant when he said he was retired, but he was having a mental breakdown and giving mixed messages and nobody was quite sure if he was retired or not. No matter how you slice it, he's the man who beat the man, which is what the lineal title is supposed to be about. The consensus among the media right now seems to be that he is still lineal champion and personally I'm fine with that because I want the heavyweight lineage to have as few breaks as possible. Would be damaging to the historical legitimacy to start unnecessarily adding breaks to the lineage.

Fury beat Klitschko. Fury is active and fighting. #1 never fought #2 during Fury's hiatus. Fury said he was retired, but then said he was joking. Benefit should be given to not breaking the lineage.

GOOD post !

[techliam]

yes, they were the bible of boxing..... but now they are just another opinion that is not definitive

The Ring do not sanction, and they do not mandate, they are just a magazine

ranking Canelo the #1 middleweight for beating 153lb Cotto..... despite the fact that Canelo had never faced a genuine middleweight opponent, had never weighed more than 155, and had insisted that he will remain at 154..... was WAKK !

they did the same with Adonis Stevenson

but they do not create lineage, the cycle of lineage follows "undisputed"

the terms lineage, and undisputed, did not exist back in the day, when there was only 1 sanctioning body..... back when there was only one title, there was no such thing as the lineal champion..... we did not need a lineal champion because we had a real one

it is the advent of the 2nd/3rd/4th OFFICIAL sanctioning bodies that muddied the waters, and The Ring have become just another opinion to add to the pile

The Ring #1 is not the lineal champ..... it could be, if he either holds all 4 belts or if he beat the guy who did

The Ring highest ranking LHW are Kovalev/Bivol..... if they fought, according to The Ring the winner would be ranked #1..... problem is, Stevenson is a title-holder and he could beat either of them..... so, neither could be called "undisputed"

you need to hold all of the major titles, or you need to beat the guy who did

No, it doesn't. Where are you getting this idea from ?

They are two completely unrelated concepts

You can be undisputed without being lineal, and vice versa. Roy Jones Jr was the best example. Martinez was the lineal MW champion without holding any titles at all.

The lineal system simply comes from the consensus no.1 beating the consensus no.2. Or where there is already a consensus champion, somebody beating him.

That is the problem with the lineal system, as its difficult to achieve consensus in a lot of cases. Right now, there is no consensus on whether or not Fury is the lineal champion, but its almost universally accepted that Joshua is no.1 and Wilder is no.2. Both the winner of that fight, and Fury would still have claims.

[New England]

There have been longer layoffs than two years before, so that part is irrelevant.

The only argument is whether he actually retired. He tweeted that he was retired, then tweeted that it was just a joke. So it's not a cut and dry situation.

I personally thought the title should have been considered vacant when he said he was retired, but he was having a mental breakdown and giving mixed messages and nobody was quite sure if he was retired or not. No matter how you slice it, he's the man who beat the man, which is what the lineal title is supposed to be about. The consensus among the media right now seems to be that he is still lineal champion and personally I'm fine with that because I want the heavyweight lineage to have as few breaks as possible. Would be damaging to the historical legitimacy to start unnecessarily adding breaks to the lineage.

Fury beat Klitschko. Fury is active and fighting. #1 never fought #2 during Fury's hiatus. Fury said he was retired, but then said he was joking. Benefit should be given to not breaking the lineage.

fury was not active and fighting, the guy had retired and was also *sort of* suspended for PEDS and blow. other than losing i can't find many better reasons to vacate the man's title. this is a discussion of lineage and in the case of my post, ring magazine and it's lineage's history. particularly with the HW championship you will not find anybody who was that inactive. best example that you'll find is muhammad ali, who certainly left under less dubious circumstances, but was not considered the champion of the world when he came back, more of a placeholder for a spot to challenge joe frazier. joe frazier had complied with the US army, kept his boxing license, and he and ali boxed off at #1 and 2 respectively for a vacant lineage.

[Kagami Taiga]

By my best estimation, lineage is currently vacant. Fury was the last lineal. Now that he's back, there's an argument that can be made for him, but its tenuous at best.

[N/A]

you will not find anybody who was that inactive.

not true. jack dempsey went over three years between defenses.

[_Rexy_]

fury was not active and fighting, the guy had retired and was also *sort of* suspended for PEDS and blow. other than losing i can't find many better reasons to vacate the man's title. this is a discussion of lineage and in the case of my post, ring magazine and it's lineage's history. particularly with the HW championship you will not find anybody who was that inactive. best example that you'll find is muhammad ali, who certainly left under less dubious circumstances, but was not considered the champion of the world when he came back, more of a placeholder for a spot to challenge joe frazier. joe frazier had complied with the US army, kept his boxing license, and he and ali boxed off at #1 and 2 respectively for a vacant lineage.

Pretty sure Ali was considered the Lineal champion at the time, which made the Ali/Frazier fight so much bigger. It wasn't just champ against former champ, it was Champion against the undefeated lineal champion who had his titles stripped.

Fury is the lineal champ until he is beaten, or legit retires.

[N/A]

By my best estimation, lineage is currently vacant.

valid argument. he did tweet he was retired. which would vacate the title. but also tweeted it was just a joke. so that is the debate. was he really retired or not. now that he's back, being referred to as lineal champion by the vast majority of the media, and negotiating for a major fight against the #2 heavyweight in the world, it would seem his lineal claim is in tact.

partially because #1 never fought #2 during his absence, but also because it was never really clear whether he was retired. very few believed he wasnt coming back.

[RJJ-94-02=GOAT]

There have been longer layoffs than two years before, so that part is irrelevant.

The only argument is whether he actually retired. He tweeted that he was retired, then tweeted that it was just a joke. So it's not a cut and dry situation.

I personally thought the title should have been considered vacant when he said he was retired, but he was having a mental breakdown and giving mixed messages and nobody was quite sure if he was retired or not. No matter how you slice it, he's the man who beat the man, which is what the lineal title is supposed to be about. The consensus among the media right now seems to be that he is still lineal champion and personally I'm fine with that because I want the heavyweight lineage to have as few breaks as possible. Would be damaging to the historical legitimacy to start unnecessarily adding breaks to the lineage.

Fury beat Klitschko. Fury is active and fighting. #1 never fought #2 during Fury's hiatus. Fury said he was retired, but then said he was joking. Benefit should be given to not breaking the lineage.

Agreed. It’s either Fury or vacant. But I’m all for continuing the lineage, so personally I’d still consider Fury the lineal champ.

[Pigeons]

when you retire for two years you lose your championship. crazy, i know.

Neither retirement was recognized by TBRB or RING. TBRB did not strip him for his Twitter retirement, they vacated his claim after he vacated his remaining heavyweight belts, but you can't lose your lineal title by vacating alphabet titles. The RING did not strip him for his Instagram retirement, they vacated his claim for inactivity, but you can't lose your lineal title for inactivity. CBZ did apparently recognize one of his social media retirements, but Boxing Scene still lists him as lineal champion.


https://www.boxingscene.com/forums/v...boxing-ratings

[Real King Kong]

Tyson Fury, although I've seen credible arguments claiming Deontay Wilder as the lineal champion due to Lennox Lewis holding the WBC strap before retiring (and never being beaten by Wlad Klitschko).

How is that credible if Lewis vacated that belt?